wikileaks.org releases classified US military video depicting killing of civilians

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Berger_4_

Do you really think the army would have wanted that footage getting out when there was all that talk of getting out of Iraq? That just would have added more fuel to the fire.

No, I'm sure they didn't want that footage to get out. That's not a good thing.

They don't hide footage of victories or things to be proud of.

Originally Posted by Berger_4_

Who's to say they didn't have an RPG with them?

I'm to say they didn't have an RPG with them, because it turns out the "RPG" was a camera lens.

Like I already said, it looks like an honest, tragic mistake to me, but it was still a mistake.

All the armchair GI Joe's can puff up their chest and say "you don't know what war is really like" and as a charter member of the Bleeding Heart Brigade I can say "neither do you".

[Mtt48]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

You're missing a key point respectfully. Those helicopters aren't necessarily on a defensive mission or stance. Their job is to kill the enemy. They identified weapons. They started circling. They saw what looked like an RPG-7 and they had a suspected shot. At that point it didn't matter if an AK-47 could hurt an apache or not. They were identified as enemy combatants under the rules of engagement, and probably based around the parameter of their patrol briefing.

That strikes me as pretty weak. So they are briefed that certain insurgents are in the area and they are supposed to identify and kill them - okay.

You would think that identifying insurgents would include a tad more due diligence than just seeing someone in a group of people standing around openly in a courtyard that has a neck/shoulder strap around them. Are RPGs 1 foot long? Because that is how long a camera with a really nice lens is. (If they assumed the RPG was something else then ignore me, I didn't see anything else).

They made careless assumptions which cost numerous people their lives. Sure it is high stress, but that is their job; to fulfill and execute the parameters of missions properly. Through misidentification they failed their mission and killed innocent people.

No excuse

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Mtt48

No excuse

I don't think he's making excuses. I think he's telling you why it happened.

[Berger_4_]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Like I already said, it looks like an honest, tragic mistake to me, but it was still a mistake.

All the armchair GI Joe's can puff up their chest and say "you don't know what war is really like" and as a charter member of the Bleeding Heart Brigade I can say "neither do you".

I most definitely won't disagree with you on either of these points.

[Kjesse]

The video is disturbing, obviously, though some will justify the attackers' actions, or condemn them, without proper context as to what was going on at the time.

We don't know the briefing they received before their patrol, the perceived threat of insurgents killing US soldiers, or whether a specific watch was placed on specific areas deemed high risk.

It doesn't matter if the perceived insurgents didn't have weapons capable of taking down the Apaches. Those helicopters are there as ground support, to keep the ground troops safe.

The part of the video that troubles me is how the request to open fire was asked for and granted. In a full war zone, you shoot everything that moves when they seem hostile. In this situation its pretty clear discretion was required and thus it was not a full war zone. They needed specific permission to open fire. The manner in which permission was requested (with incorrect information) and the casualness in which it was granted makes the process of requesting permission to open fire questionable. I can't see how the person who granted the permission to open fire could have said no given what he was told. Its almost like the procedure is there to protect the Apache crew from bad decisions. Make them own the decision. In this case it would seem they would have opened fire on their own, but at least leave the decision with those on site, or make the verification process more complete. Otherwise its just unnecessary red tape.

Anyway, awful video, but such is war; the military machine is designed to kill, and this video shows how well they perform. From a global perspective (and certainly not from the perspective of the victims or Iraqis in general), the fact that the US released this to the public is probably the best thing to take from the experience... in the face of brutal facts, they release the video and allow the debate to take place. If you believe in democracy, the release of this video will lead to scrutiny which will lessen these kinds of mistakes.

The decision to fire, which I think is a mistake discovered after the fact, seems excusable if the context which I expect to hear comes out. But the video, on its own, raises reasons to ask more questions.

[Montana Moe]

None of us have enough information to really know the situation, so I'm not going to pass judgment until we get more of the story. I'm more of an "eliminate the perceived threat" kind of guy from my Marine Corps days, but I'm not going to try to justify what happened on the video since I wasn't there.

You rely on your training and experience, and adapt to your situation and mission. Every one is different.

I would certainly think that was an RPG:

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by PIMking

The terrorist didn't care that there were kids on those airplanes on 9/11 they didn't care there were kids in the Towers either.

They killed INNOCENT people with that stunt. But did we have to hear an apology from any of them? NO!

It's terrible but it happens.

This has to be one of the stupidest posts to ever grace the internet.

Are you suggesting that the Americans stoop to the levels of the terrorists? There's a difference between terrorists atacking innocent civilians and the United States attacking innocent civilians.

That being said, after finally looking at the big picture, and after my blood cooled off from watching that video it looked like a honest mistake. The pilots were doing their job, and if any blame is going to be laid it should not be on the pilots, but on the people higher in charge.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by puckluck

This has to be one of the stupidest posts to ever grace the internet.

Are you suggesting that the Americans stoop to the levels of the terrorists? There's a difference between terrorists atacking innocent civilians and the United States attacking innocent civilians.

That being said, after finally looking at the big picture, and after my blood cooled off from watching that video it looked like a honest mistake. The pilots were doing their job, and if any blame is going to be laid it should not be on the pilots, but on the people higher in charge.

That had to be the dumbest rebuttal on the interwebz. I never said anywhere that we should stoop to the level of the terrorist did I? NO!

I simply stated that they killed innocent people and didn't even blink an eye. It happens in war, Innocent people get caught in the cross fire. This isn't like a sport were you can put two sides against each other on a field and let em go at it with out no one else but combatants getting injured...

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by PIMking

How in the Hell do you know that these are Iraqi Citizens? You do know Terrorists are coming from all over the world to fight and just have the chance to kill an American or Canadian or Brit?

So your assumption of them being Iraqi doesn't add up. For all we know they could be Syrian or Saud.

Again, what difference does it make if the terrorists were Iraqi, Lebanese, Saudi, or even from North America?

Bottom line is that you can not blame and punish a whole race or many races for the wrong doings of one minority group within the race.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by puckluck

Again, what difference does it make if the terrorists were Iraqi, Lebanese, Saudi, or even from North America?

Bottom line is that you can not blame and punish a whole race or many races for the wrong doings of one minority group within the race.

God some of you guys would make great Politicians. I never said anywhere that we need to punish a whole race did I?

Good lord quit typing for me.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by PIMking

That had to be the dumbest rebuttal on the interwebz. I never said anywhere that we should stoop to the level of the terrorist did I? NO!

I simply stated that they killed innocent people and didn't even blink an eye. It happens in war, Innocent people get caught in the cross fire. This isn't like a sport were you can put two sides against each other on a field and let em go at it with out no one else but combatants getting injured...

What I got from your post and I'm sure almost anyone else that read it was that the Americans are justified in killing innocent civilians and not having to feel bad because a group of terrorists killed innocents and never felt bad.

I think you'll be waiting a long time for Osama Bin Laden to come out and say he feels bad for killing innocent people.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by puckluck

What I got from your post and I'm sure almost anyone else that read it was that the Americans are justified in killing innocent civilians and not having to feel bad because a group of terorists killed innocents and never felt bad.

I think you'll be waiting a long time for Osama Bin Laden to come out and say he feels bad for killing innocent people.

It's never okay to kill innocent people. It happens and it's not like I can do anything about it. The faster you grasp the idea that it happens and there is nothing you can do about it you will feel better.

It's a shame that it happened. But how in the world are the pilot and gunner suppose to know that there are children in the van?

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by PIMking

God some of you guys would make great Politicians. I never said anywhere that we need to punish a whole race did I?

Good lord quit typing for me.

You never directly said it but you implied it. What else would your post mean? you said that the terrorists did it so THEY shouldn't expect a apology.

And I'm not meaning to pick on your posts, but just wanted to clear that up.

[PIMking]

Understandable, I do feel bad about kids being caught up in the cross fire. But it just happens.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by PIMking

It's never okay to kill innocent people. It happens and it's not like I can do anything about it. The faster you grasp the idea that it happens and there is nothing you can do about it you will feel better.

It's a shame that it happened. But how in the world are the pilot and gunner suppose to know that there are children in the van?

Believe me I understand all about innocent people getting killed. My dad was tortured and almost killed by israeli soldiers as a teenager. I understand that sometimes innocent people get killed and don't blame the pilots at all. They are just doing their jobs and the blame needs to be on the higher ranks of the decision making. I'm not a fan of war and wish they would withdraw because I know in my heart that this war can not be won. The mindset of these people is beyond fixing and more and more people are going to be recruited into terrorists as long as America is in Iraq.

[PIMking]

Does anyone know when this video was made?

The last time my mom went to Iraq the ground troops had to wait until being fired on and then call it in to higher ups and then wait to find out if they could engage.

My mom came back in feb of 09 to give you a time line.

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by PIMking

Does anyone know when this video was made?

The last time my mom went to Iraq the ground troops had to wait until being fired on and then call it in to higher ups and then wait to find out if they could engage.

My mom came back in feb of 09 to give you a time line.

July 12, 2007.

Its not like many pacifists join the US military let alone rise through the ranks to be able to help create the Rules of Engagment... those rules would have been put in place for a reason, as odd as those rules may sound.

If you go to www.collateralmurder.com , the Rules of Engagement are posted. I don't like the name of the website, and do not support the slant of the story, but the content is useful to consider. The release of the video and the text on the website would also suggest that news outlets like Reuters are more influential than I would expect... but that may just be them tooting their own horns and trying to avenge their dead journalist. At the same time, it makes me think. The fact that they use an Orwell quote at the beginning of the edited video makes it less influential, almost like they're promoting fear-mongering. That being said, I thought of Orwell when I read the "official" military version of what happened and then compared it to what seems clear in this video.

Further Edit: Put yourself in the position of the Apache crew. You have a decision to make, and if you're wrong your friends (or you) might get killed. That's a lot of pressure. Most of these guys on the front line are 25 or younger. Making decisions in that environment... wow.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by Delgar

July 12, 2007

ROE have changed since then. Probably because of something like this.

[Itse]

It really takes quite a bit of coloured glasses to see that as anything but random killing of unknown people in an urban area.

Tons of people have guns in that area. You can tell in a split-second that the people they were looking at were not aware of any threat towards them, which also makes it obvious that they were not prepared to shoot at anyone either.

What's more important, it was very clear from the video that the behaviour of the gunpilots was not something they considered in any way special. Just another day in the office. Geneva be damned, gunning down wounded people and people trying to help them is obviously common practice for these guys. (The insurgents do it, why shouldn't the US?)

The pilots wanted to shoot at something, they cooked up an excuse and started blasting. How is this any different from randomly car-bombing US controlled areas? Lots of people in those areas have guns too.

What the US (and Israel) is doing is counter-productice. You can't win that kind of a war in that way unless you're willing to do full-scale genocide.

I only hope that the new strategies and policies of the new US administration has lead to some kind of a change in attitude somewhere.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Delgar

J The fact that they use an Orwell quote at the beginning of the edited video makes it less influential, almost like they're promoting fear-mongering. That being said, I thought of Orwell when I read the "official" military version of what happened and then compared it to what seems clear in this video.

Further Edit: Put yourself in the position of the Apache crew. You have a decision to make, and if you're wrong your friends (or you) might get killed. That's a lot of pressure. Most of these guys on the front line are 25 or younger. Making decisions in that environment... wow.

Unfortunately, the progression of the "wars" in the Middle East has become nothing but Orwellian.

Furthermore, these incidents that we deem as one-off and exceptions are happening more and more but are simply being covered up. Some examples:

- this latest video; if they were RPG packing insurgents in a highly volatile area with an intent to shoot down US troops / helicopters, they were sure walking rather gingerly in the middle of the road. There is also no defense of the follow-up incident to terminate the clearly unarmed people trying to move an injured human into a van, nor is there a need to drive over a dead human body.

- the cover-up of an incident in Afghanistan this year where a family was celebrating a birth, but US forces were somehow alarmed, engaged the party and shot two men and three women. The official stance was that the women were "honor killings" by the men, which was subsequently proven false with nary a care by the army / pentagon / US press.

- Guantanamo

- Abu Ghraib

- the "Salt Pit" revelations in Afghanistan

- multiple Blackwater / Xe incidents

- Wikileaks supposedly has another video primed for release

The instances are sadly too numerous to name. Therefore, I completely disagree with people who, *at this stage of the game*, invoke the "put yourself in their position" comment as a means to bring an element of perspective to the events on the ground. Maybe this perception could have been true back when a couple of photos of a smoking, pointing Lynndie England were released. However, those days are long past; the trend is clear. Unfortunately, the media (and an uninterested public) is complicit in this problem by being supple and shallow in the face of truly horrifying government hypocrisy and complicity in violence.

Glenn Greenwald at Salon is a great one to follow to dissect the travesty going on in the American media.


* Not disagreeing with your quoted comments per se, but just using them as a springboard.