Vancouver 2010 Olympic official countdown unveiling turns nasty

[Flames Fan in West Van]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

I saw a dead bunny on the side of the road on the way to work today. I called in sick and went home to cut myself.

Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hah ha ha ha ha ha!

######bag.

[Flames Fan in West Van]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Pretty crazy situation.
I like Flames fan in West Van, feel for both sides. And I also will be a Flames fan in West Van soon. Wierd, are you my twin?

Pfft! You wish you looked like me...

But, I'll sell you the rights to "Flames Fan in West Van" for a fair price...

[Flames Fan in West Van]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Great news, if housing is prohibative in Vancouver ... this is a great big, huge country that each Canadian is free to move around within.

Anyone who wants a job, can have a job, anyone who wants to EARN a home, can earn a home. Not everyone will be able to affort Yaletown, but that's capitalism for ya.

Wasn't it Klein who bought a greyhound ticket for all the homeless people in Alberta to go to BC?

What you are failing to understand is pretty elementary: The Canadian Climate. BC is the only place in the entire country where homeless people can survive pretty much all year around outside in the elements. This plays a huge factor in the number of homeless people here. Hey, when was the last time you heard of a homeless person dying in a bus shelter in Calgary... oh, wait...

You can't apply "Alberta solutions" of just get a job you lazy ass here. Vancouver's culture is so radically different than Calgary's... I mean, when was the last time there was a protest in Calgary? I walk by the Vancouver Art Gallery everyday, and that was the second protest this week. This place doesn't just ignore the problem, or sweep it under the rug (or the preverbial rug the old Brick on 16th). People here expect something to be done, as it is they have already set up safe injection sites that have drastically reduced the amount of money spent on ambulances, let alone drop in IV illnesses. When do you think Calgary will set their's up? Yeah... I'ld like to see that.

It's not about getting a job and buying a house. It's deeper than that, so much deeper than that. It's mental health, it's addictions, it's the sex-trade, it's societal pressures, it's class stratification, it's racism, sexism, it's a lot of things, not just getting a job.

[RedHot25]

Kudos to everyone keeping a good discussion in this thread....(although I guess West Van is now banned if I read that right?).

Anyways....

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

The working homeless is a huge area of concern but I have a hard time feeling a great deal of sympathy for many people who move to areas such as Calgary knowing the issues which are present regarding the economy and then expect, no demand, that something be done to help them in their situation. If you don't have a residence to move into, don't move.

Past that addictions are a huge area of concern due to the health care costs but at which point are people responsible for their own health? Yes they are addicts but they are addicts by their own choice, should they get advantages in subsidized housing that the average Canadian who has worked their whole life wouldn't even dream of?

Fair enough, Mr. Mustard. A couple of quick points:

1) Like Winsor quoted below, Calgary's homeless population does have a big chunk of people that were here and got displaced. A big thing too is that while there are jobs everything, the cost of a place to live is sky high. Yes that is the byproduct of a hot economy, but when the job you are at can no longer afford you a place to live, or makes you have to make difficult choices...

Also, yes, a chunk is likely people moving to Calgary. As someone who has lived outside of Alberta (in 2 different provices) while the boom/good times are on, I can tell you that it is thought of as an attractive place to go to (kind of obvious) from a lot of people. However, keep in mind that its often more of a consideration of what they are leaving if that makes sense. For e.g., a lot of people here in the Maritimes in my opinion don't really want to leave, but when there are not nearly enough jobs, you are working but struggling to make ends meet, and Alberta companies are recruiting like crazy down here (ads and supplements in the newspapers, hiring fairs, etc)...its not hard to see why you move.

And sure there are some currently homeless who move to Calgary...however, keep in mind that it is not cheap to move across the country (even if you hitch hike etc). I would hazard to guess that this group moving to alberta is low because they simply can't afford to get there.

2) Since my earlier bit is quite large, I will keep this part short. Not everyone is an addict by their own choice...you would be surprised how many people are walking by and put one coin in a slot machine, are at a party and try one thing, etc. Not the case for everyone, yes, but you do have to keep in mind the other side....that some bad things are addictive in themselves.

I quoted Sparks below because I think he/she raises good points in that.

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Your point of view seems to assume a large number of the cities homeless moved here when Calgary boomed and then couldn't get a home.

Where have you heard that this is the case, as opposed to people who were already here pre-boom and have now found themselves homeless? (or already were)

I would guess newcomers to Calgary actually represent a very small proportion of the cities homeless.

Originally Posted by Sparks

Although some addicts undoubtedly brought it on themselves, I think it's safe to assume that a large number are there because of situational factors in their lives, out of their control - mental illness, severely abusive/messed up upbringing (perhaps also by an addict), etc.

Considering none of the above applies to me, for example, I'd say my chances of ending up a homeless addict on the streets are pretty low. Since those things are out of my control, how can I pass judgement on those people? (Or not be sympathetic?) I don't think it's a level playing field when it comes to making decisions.

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Doing a quick google search of the rates of homelessness in Calgary I was able to come across an article from 2004 which showed that the rates of homeless families increased by 148% from 2002, and the overall rates of homelessness increased by 49% in the same timeframe. The problem is getting much worse as Calgary becomes a bigger city, as I guess one would expect. Just look at the Brick building on 16th Avenue N, in years past there has been enough drop in beds for the night but as it stands right now all the beds are full every night.

With regards to addicts, I do feel bad that they are in the situation that they are in, and I do know a large number of natives (brought up because generally they are the most at risk in our society) who have informed me as to the day to day lives of the reserves in Canada and why some of the problems exist. At a certain point though there is a choice made by everyone as to which path they want to travel, with some that choice may be harder (people who have been victims of abuse for example), but there is still a cognative choice.

I understand what you are saying, but absuse is not an easy one - the domination and control exerted by the abuser (emotional, physical, financial whatever) is quite profound. Do you leave if you have no where to go? Do you leave if you have absolutely no money? Are you "ashamed to leave" (even though you shouldn't be, but that feeling is quite prevelant)? etc etc...

Also with regards to homeless #s. I think part of it is because we are just growing so much (so the # of homeless increases based on size), and I think a factor is also greater awareness. We all know hear about the Drop In Centre/Mustard Seed, but when you hear about the Brick on 16th Ave being turned into a homeless shelter, that catches some eyes...i.e. is it really that much/that bad? Aren't there enough spots at the Drop In Centre etc?

Originally Posted by Flames Fan in West Van

BC is the only place in the entire country where homeless people can survive pretty much all year around outside in the elements. This plays a huge factor in the number of homeless people here.

It's not about getting a job and buying a house. It's deeper than that, so much deeper than that. It's mental health, it's addictions, it's the sex-trade, it's societal pressures, it's class stratification, it's racism, sexism, it's a lot of things, not just getting a job.

I think these are both a good couple of points. The top one is quite relevant; having lived in Vancouver and Calgary, I can tell you if I was homeless, and if I was able to make the choice, I would prefer to be homeless in Van over Calgary.

Cheers.

[HalifaxDrunk]

B.C.'s auditor general, issued a report saying the Olympics will cost Canadians $2.5 billion, with $1.5 billion of that being picked up by B.C. residents.

The B.C. government is spending $775 million to upgrade the highway that links Vancouver to Whistler. Another $2 billion is being spent to build a transit line between the airport and downtown Vancouver, with a stop at the athletes village.

I have to ask, who REALLY believes that if Pyeongchang or Salzburg had won the Olympic bid that BC would put $1.5 Billion into helping the homeless? Fixing Highways? Cleaning up Vancouver? ETC.

[Looger]

nonsense HalifaxDrunk, BC spends its money responsibly.

sincerely, BC Ferries.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

2) Since my earlier bit is quite large, I will keep this part short. Not everyone is an addict by their own choice...you would be surprised how many people are walking by and put one coin in a slot machine, are at a party and try one thing, etc. Not the case for everyone, yes, but you do have to keep in mind the other side....that some bad things are addictive in themselves.

That is an interesting point but at the same time it is the people's choice to make those decisions to put the coin in the slot (I assume you mean a gambling addiction, which is completely different than a physiological addiction I believe) or by trying something at a party, they are making the decision.

Now I believe that health care should still be provided but at the same time how far should the government go? Should they be responsible for everything in the crack addicts life merely because they made some poor choices.

I know I have an addictive personality (hense why I am here I guess ) but at the same time I take that into consideration and use rationale thought processes when I make decisions, if I did everything that I thought was cool or decided on a whim, I would be dead right now.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

I know I have an addictive personality (hense why I am here I guess ) but at the same time I take that into consideration and use rationale thought processes when I make decisions, if I did everything that I thought was cool or decided on a whim, I would be dead right now.

Fair enough, but the thing is - for whatever reason - some people do not have the capacity/ability/etc to make those rational decisions. Sometimes, and its hard for me to explain this, its just not as easy as just making that rationale decision to stop whatever it is.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

Fair enough, but the thing is - for whatever reason - some people do not have the capacity/ability/etc to make those rational decisions. Sometimes, and its hard for me to explain this, its just not as easy as just making that rationale decision to stop whatever it is.

I understand where you are coming from it is usually a concoction of peer pressure with a desire to escape their world, even temporarily but what happens in the end is that the addictions wind up taking over their world and making life that much worse as everytime they do sober up they are forced to see what has become of their lives and the only way that they can deal with that is through drugs,alcohol,further gambling, etc, etc. Then there are the obvious physiological addictions associated with drug use which can't be overlooked.

I understand for the most part the mindset of a drug addict but the question I have is how much of a handout should they get?

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

I understand where you are coming from it is usually a concoction of peer pressure with a desire to escape their world, even temporarily but what happens in the end is that the addictions wind up taking over their world and making life that much worse as everytime they do sober up they are forced to see what has become of their lives and the only way that they can deal with that is through drugs,alcohol,further gambling, etc, etc. Then there are the obvious physiological addictions associated with drug use which can't be overlooked.

I understand for the most part the mindset of a drug addict but the question I have is how much of a handout should they get?

Point #1 - Fair enough.

Point #2 - Well.....I think society has been debating that point since (basically) the dawn of time....

[FLAMESBURNOIL]

Originally Posted by HalifaxDrunk

B.C.'s auditor general, issued a report saying the Olympics will cost Canadians $2.5 billion, with $1.5 billion of that being picked up by B.C. residents.

The B.C. government is spending $775 million to upgrade the highway that links Vancouver to Whistler. Another $2 billion is being spent to build a transit line between the airport and downtown Vancouver, with a stop at the athletes village.

I have to ask, who REALLY believes that if Pyeongchang or Salzburg had won the Olympic bid that BC would put $1.5 Billion into helping the homeless? Fixing Highways? Cleaning up Vancouver? ETC.

Excellent points, the rumor around these parts was that the rich powers up in Whistler were so ****ed and almost resigned to the fact that the BC goverement would never upgrade their money trail of a highway - that starting and backing the Olympic bid was the only way to get the highway upgraded - so it has been speculated this is one for the main reasons for this Olympic bid.. Its also been said that the highway was never going to be upgraded, never...or at least not for 20 years...

The Highway upgrade and the Canada Line (runs from the airport to downtown) are the only big commuter upgrades they are doing...traffic is a nightmare already in Vancouver and considering the traffic jams that happened on Hwy 1 in '88 - i cant imagine how horrific its going to be during the Olympics...

[Looger]

i used to live on that highway, in lillooet, close to cache creek and the junction of 97 and 99.

without the olympics i can guarantee that the whistler leg of the highway would NEVER be upgraded, it was probably #25 on the list of BC highway upgrades.

if the coquihalla had never been built, then by now it may be a better highway - it is an alternate route to kamloops, though definitely not the best!

i remember when whistler was pretty much nothing, a couple hotels (one with two very long waterslides, woohoo!), it was considered a cheap investment 20 years ago. we used to hang out there in the summer sometimes - great bike trails.

i welcome any highway upgrade surrounding vancouver, if that comes with olympics only, i guess that's better than throwing your money into the sea as per usual.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Looger

I welcome any highway upgrade surrounding vancouver, if that comes with olympics only, i guess that's better than throwing your money into the sea as per usual.

Well, they could decide that the new highway isn't all it is cracked up to be and then sell it for 1/10th the original cost to some other country...

[Looger]

at least highways don't rust!

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by HalifaxDrunk

I have to ask, who REALLY believes that if Pyeongchang or Salzburg had won the Olympic bid that BC would put $1.5 Billion into helping the homeless? Fixing Highways? Cleaning up Vancouver? ETC.

That's the whole point.
People don't believe it, and that's why they protest that homelessness is not a priority.
If everyone believed the BC gov was gonna put money into homelessness, they wouldn't need to protest.

[BCReefer]

I must say this has been one of the most intriguing set of posts I have read on the internet for months.

As a person who pays his taxes and commutes 2 hours a day I have a say in this as well. I feel like the average Joe but maybe my thoughts are on little more extreme.

For one thing, anything free people will take advantage of it. If we subsidise housing for the homeless, statistically there would probably be a lot of damage to these houses that cost the tax payer more money. I feel that there is a lot of social service help that is available but it is up the individual to look after himself/herself.

At the same time I would like to see Riverdale Hospital which is Vancouver’s mental institute (if I can call it that?) open up more beds to get some of the mentally handicapped off the streets and into the hospital.

If we also look at who some of the homeless are, a portion of that are the disillusioned youth who at their current stage in life, really don’t care about much. Look at the protestors, majority are in the 20 - 40 age group and instead of working, they prefer to raise holy do-do at major events. I understand why, as this gives them the limelight so needed to ensure some government action. But I prefer that these protestors spend as much time educating fellow street people, working with them to find jobs and get their self respect back. There are also “professional” protestors who appear at the flavour of the month protest.

I have no problem supporting anyone through tough times but not for years because they choose their life style.

Regarding the highway upgrades – considering the amount of deaths that occur yearly on the Sea-Sky highway the upgrades are long over due. If it takes the Olympics to get our fair share then all the better for it. About time Ottawa sent some money to BC instead of back east to buy votes. (had to get Ottawa into this social discussion).

After travelling to Germany/Japan and through different parts of the States we do a lot for our homeless, but unless we give everything free to them they will not be happy. Next it will be a protest about day care, then the students, then the nurses and teachers. Live in BC is interesting.

[FLAMESBURNOIL]

Originally Posted by BCReefer

I must say this has been one of the most intriguing set of posts I have read on the internet for months.

As a person who pays his taxes and commutes 2 hours a day I have a say in this as well. I feel like the average Joe but maybe my thoughts are on little more extreme.

For one thing, anything free people will take advantage of it. If we subsidise housing for the homeless, statistically there would probably be a lot of damage to these houses that cost the tax payer more money. I feel that there is a lot of social service help that is available but it is up the individual to look after himself/herself.

At the same time I would like to see Riverdale Hospital which is Vancouver’s mental institute (if I can call it that?) open up more beds to get some of the mentally handicapped off the streets and into the hospital.

If we also look at who some of the homeless are, a portion of that are the disillusioned youth who at their current stage in life, really don’t care about much. Look at the protestors, majority are in the 20 - 40 age group and instead of working, they prefer to raise holy do-do at major events. I understand why, as this gives them the limelight so needed to ensure some government action. But I prefer that these protestors spend as much time educating fellow street people, working with them to find jobs and get their self respect back. There are also “professional” protestors who appear at the flavour of the month protest.

I have no problem supporting anyone through tough times but not for years because they choose their life style.

Regarding the highway upgrades – considering the amount of deaths that occur yearly on the Sea-Sky highway the upgrades are long over due. If it takes the Olympics to get our fair share then all the better for it. About time Ottawa sent some money to BC instead of back east to buy votes. (had to get Ottawa into this social discussion).

After travelling to Germany/Japan and through different parts of the States we do a lot for our homeless, but unless we give everything free to them they will not be happy. Next it will be a protest about day care, then the students, then the nurses and teachers. Live in BC is interesting.

Good post, also lets not forget that majority of homeless on Vancouvers downtown east end have addictions to a variety of drugs, they rather spend ever penny they get on drugs to fuel their addiction..they chose to be homeless because their next hit is more important than a roof under their head....

Housing for the homeless doesnt come close to addressing the real issue and would be a huge waste of money like you hinted.

[Scrambler]

Originally Posted by FLAMESBURNOIL

Good post, also lets not forget that majority of homeless on Vancouvers downtown east end have addictions to a variety of drugs, they rather spend ever penny they get on drugs to fuel their addiction..they chose to be homeless because their next hit is more important than a roof under their head....

Housing for the homeless doesnt come close to addressing the real issue and would be a huge waste of money like you hinted.

Fully agree with your post and the one you quoted. I originally posted this thread to tell news of the even and share my thoughts on how ****ed off I was, but the discussion has turned much broader into a very good discussion/debate.