Police shooting of unarmed teen leads to protests and Riot

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

He got shot because he went after the cop. He could have been wearing a tuxedo but if you're going to scuffle with a cop you're chances of getting shot go up.

yes, but if he went after a cop in a tuxedo after his dayjob the country would lose it. The result would be the police being less likely to unjustly target black people because of the public reaction. There is no real public reaction now, it's a stupid protest. They are hurting their own cause with all the looting and rioting, the country is now less likely to rally around unjust police brutality against black people and that's the point.

Surely this goes to a trial if he wasn't stereotyped as a thug. People would be wondering what the hell happened for the altercation to even happen in the first place but they don't, even though the policeman had no real reason to suspect him of anything at the time.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by AcGold

yes, but if he went after a cop in a tuxedo after his dayjob the country would lose it. The result would be the police being less likely to unjustly target black people because of the public reaction. There is no real public reaction now, it's a stupid protest. They are hurting their own cause with all the looting and rioting, the country is now less likely to rally around unjust police brutality against black people and that's the point.

Surely this goes to a trial if he wasn't stereotyped as a thug. People would be wondering what the hell happened for the altercation to even happen in the first place but they don't, even though the policeman had no real reason to suspect him of anything at the time.

It is fair to debate the merits or efficacy of the protest, but you do realize the rioters are not the protestors, right? There are protests across the US now and the rioters are the minority of the participants.

[nfotiu]

I don't really disagree with much of what you say here, even though i'm assuming I am one of people you are labeling as blatantly racist.

Originally Posted by wittynickname

I was at work all day, and a lot has happened in this thread since then, but I feel the need to respond to a few things:

Or, just maybe, that increased incarceration rate is due to the fact that most communities are policed and governed by mostly white authorities. Or that perhaps just maybe black people get harsher punishments for the same crimes. Or that maybe, just maybe, systemic racism actually exists and is the main cause for all of these problems--increased black crime, increased black incarceration, etc, etc.

Here's where I guess I disagree with your definition of racism. Or maybe don't understand it. I don't even think it is accurate to say that predominantly black municipalities are policed or governed by white authorities. That is not the case around here where the mayor and majority of police officers are black. There are definitely underlying root causes that lead to far more crime being committed in the poor black communities, but I don't know that there is this white conspiracy that is consciously keeping these people down.

In order to deal with black crime--mostly gun crime--this country would have to make some attempt to make guns harder to gain access too. But the NRA would never allow that.

And don't even come at me with "legally owned/illegally owned" weapons. Guess what--if you outlaw guns entirely, or heavily restrict their ownership, you could probably limit a whole lot of those illegally owned weapons. Fewer guns means fewer guns getting into the hands of criminals.

Gun crime is massive in this country, and it just keeps getting more prevalent as the NRA pushes for more and more lenient gun laws. That just leads to more weapons being in the hands of people who shouldn't have them.

I generally agree with that. But along the same line of what you are saying, it has to be some meaningful gun control that somehow removes the millions of guns that are already out there. Without that, any kind of gun control would only be symbolic and a waste of time.

Yes, black people have a problem--a justice system that arrests them at an increased rate due to the "war on drugs" which sees plenty of black people jailed for minor drug charges--meanwhile white people get a slap on the wrist for the same charges.

There is truth to that. But it doesn't explain why blacks are committing robberies at 17 times the rate of whites, or homicides at 8 times the rate.

White on white crime and black on black crime are likely to happen far more often because this country may not have "segregation" any longer--but the society is set up in a way where whites still live mostly around other whites, and blacks still live mostly around other blacks. And in general, those black communities are underfunded and poorly policed. Leading to lower education, leading to higher crime rates, leading to more hardened, jaded police officers and then leading to increased tension between the community and the officers tasked with protecting said community.

Systemic.

That's probably all true, but is it racism? And if so, how do you reverse it? I disagree that it is white police targeting black suspects that is the root cause. i would suggest that is just a symptom of the situation as you describe above. You make it sound like there are white people in power deciding to under fund education and police in the poorer black neighbourhoods, but it doesn't seem that is how it always shakes out.

It is typically a white flight type scenario where people of means will either send their kids to private school or move away from the city to the suburban counties. Maybe the more admirable thing to do would be to work to make things better (which does occur in small pockets), but when it is your own kids you are thinking about, it is not easy to put their safety and education at risk just to satisfy your principles. Most people I know (myself included) who have made those decisions did so to go to a better school system, not to get away from black people.

While all these problems are surely rooted in historical racism, I am not a believer that it is racism that is continuing to cause the problems today. Black people and white people in the suburban county I live in now are well integrated, blacks are no more likely to commit crimes, and as far as I know run-ins with the police are rare.

[PeteMoss]

I doubt it goes to trial if he's white either.

The argument would be that he wouldn't have been shot if he was white.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by fatso

It is fair to debate the merits or efficacy of the protest, but you do realize the rioters are not the protestors, right? There are protests across the US now and the rioters are the minority of the participants.

yes, but many of the protesters are also fairly stupid. Standing around the drama and excitement without any real goal or purpose and dramatizing any police action whatsoever.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by blankall

Hmm... agree with you on a lot of this, but Obama has cut the deficit only from the astronomical levels he brought it to. It's still higher than when he started (although not on a per capita basis). He had an extremely tough economic time to take over, but I wouldn't credit him with any kind of deficit or debt reduction.

I guess it depends who you assign 2009 to:
Obama Deficits
FY 2015*: $564 bln
FY 2014: $483 bln
FY 2013: $680 bln
FY 2012: $1,087 bln
FY 2011: $1,300 bln
FY 2010: $1,294 bln
Bush Deficits
FY 2009†: $1,413 bln
FY 2008: $458 bln
FY 2007: $161 bln
FY 2006: $248 bln
FY 2005: $318 bln
† Some people have emailed to insist that the FY 2009 deficit should be assigned to Obama. But conventional wisdom maintains that the deficit in the first year of a president’s first term belongs to his predecessor.



Unless you can provide a compelling argument otherwise, I'm inclined to go with the footnote here, as it seems reasonable to say Obama had no control over 2009.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/...cit_chart.html

[Flash Walken]

Steps to not looking like a thug:

1) Be White
2) Don't be Black
3) Be White

[blankall]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I guess it depends who you assign 2009 to:
Obama Deficits
FY 2015*: $564 bln
FY 2014: $483 bln
FY 2013: $680 bln
FY 2012: $1,087 bln
FY 2011: $1,300 bln
FY 2010: $1,294 bln
Bush Deficits
FY 2009†: $1,413 bln
FY 2008: $458 bln
FY 2007: $161 bln
FY 2006: $248 bln
FY 2005: $318 bln
† Some people have emailed to insist that the FY 2009 deficit should be assigned to Obama. But conventional wisdom maintains that the deficit in the first year of a president’s first term belongs to his predecessor.



Unless you can provide a compelling argument otherwise, I'm inclined to go with the footnote here, as it seems reasonable to say Obama had no control over 2009.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/...cit_chart.html

No... the 2009 deficit was entirely the result of obama's economic policies. I'm not saying Obama was wrong, but he spent a lot of money.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

In Florida, George Zimmerman killed a kid, got off. In the same state, a woman fired a warning shot--hitting no one at all--when her abusive ex was coming toward her. She's now spending 3 years in jail. But she's black, so Stand Your Ground apparently wasn't applicable. Zimmerman killed someone, she did not, but she's the one serving jail time.

Are you actually familiar with the mechanics of either of those two cases? Because that paragraph kind of seems to show that you aren't.

Zimmerman didn't claim or use the Stand your Ground defense, he knew it wouldn't work. He went with self-defense. He knew (or his lawyers did and advised him) that the SYG defense would be iffy, and he stood a better chance with the self-defense defense.

The lady (Marissa Alexander) insisted on trying to use the Stand your Ground defense, even when she shouldn't have. She's not spending time in jail because she's black, but because she tried to use a defense that relies on not being able to leave. However, she fully admitted that after arguing with her husband, she left the house, went to the car, got the gun, came back and then fired the warning shot at her husband...who was holding their child, btw. You can't claim that you were unable to leave a situation if you left the situation then GOT A GUN AND RETURNED to the situation. But because she insisted on using the SYG defense, her defense failed, and she got jail time.

[Flash Walken]

^Absurd.

A large portion of the budget deficit reported in 2009 is simply because the Obama administration refused to continue on with the lie of the previous administration and include the costs of military expenditures in Iraq and Afghanistan as part of the actual budget.

The other part of the equation is the preceding 8 years of financial mismanagement that is completely ignored. Like Obama decided to come into office with a staggering, pre-existing budget deficit and a recession.

I don't even...I mean, it's so obvious...how can you...

I don't get it. It's not even the thread for it, but I mean, that's just---there are no words.

[Canuck-Hater]

Its not about the riots, I wish people would stop focusing on a handful of troublemakers... The majority of protesters/protests have been peaceful. I can't justify the vandalism in the streets but at the same time I understand why people are furious.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Byrns

When was the last time, in the U.S., there was a Hispanic riot? Or an Asian riot? Just curious why the systemic racism appears to be limited to blacks?

Because Asians and Hispanics don't feel targeted by the police. They don't feel the tension in day to day life. If an Asian guy got shot by the police either

A) He deserved to be shot
B) It was a mistake by the police

A mistake is of course hard to accept but the victim wasn't targeted by police, it was just a mistake. They accept that.

Blacks feel like the policeman shot Brown only because he was black.

[Flash Walken]

There is also the feeling of inevitability, like the entire system is conspiring against them, and when there are massive shows of force and rampant police brutality and discrimination all over the country, these groups aren't wrong.

It's unfortunate for the local businesses affected, but, the anger isn't misplaced or unwarranted.

[wittynickname]

Also please forgive me if I don't feel the case was accurately presented to the Grand Jury, given that the prosecuting attorney was also on the board of directors raising money for Darren Wilson, the man he was supposed to be prosecuting.

http://aattp.org/fair-trial-st-louis...darren-wilson/

There are a whole lot of racial problems with regards to this situation--but there are a whole lot of issues with overzealous police even if you take race out of the equation. This isn't a new story in the US. This is a very, very old story--and that's why there's so much anger.

[RedMileDJ]

So Ted Nugent had a few comments...

https://www.facebook.com/tednugent/p...52535118862297

NSFW - language.

NSFW!

Here's the lessons from Ferguson America- Don't let your kids growup to be thugs who think they can steal, assault & attack cops as a way of life & badge of black (dis)honor. Don't preach your racist bull#### "no justice no peace" as blabbered by Obama's racist Czar Al Not So Sharpton & their black klansmen. When a cop tells you to get out of the middle of the street, obey him & don't attack him as brainwashed by the gangsta #######s you hang with & look up to. It's that simple unless you have no brains, no soul, no sense of decency whatsoever. And dont claim that "black lives matter" when you ignore the millions you abort & slaughter each & every day by other blacks. Those of us with a soul do indeed believe black lives matter, as all lives matter. So quit killin each other you ####in idiots. Drive safely.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by RedMileDJ

So Ted Nugent had a few comments...

https://www.facebook.com/tednugent/p...52535118862297

NSFW - language.

NSFW!

Here's the lessons from Ferguson America- Don't let your kids growup to be thugs who think they can steal, assault & attack cops as a way of life & badge of black (dis)honor. Don't preach your racist bull#### "no justice no peace" as blabbered by Obama's racist Czar Al Not So Sharpton & their black klansmen. When a cop tells you to get out of the middle of the street, obey him & don't attack him as brainwashed by the gangsta #######s you hang with & look up to. It's that simple unless you have no brains, no soul, no sense of decency whatsoever. And dont claim that "black lives matter" when you ignore the millions you abort & slaughter each & every day by other blacks. Those of us with a soul do indeed believe black lives matter, as all lives matter. So quit killin each other you ####in idiots. Drive safely.

It is one of the mysteries of the modern age that a degenerate draft-dodging pedophile can become a voice for the flag-wavin', gun-totin', law n' order crowd.

Stupid people need a spokesman, I guess, but you'd think they'd be able to rustle up someone better than a guy whose major accomplishment of the last 30 years was getting his face on Wooderson's t-shirt in Dazed and Confused.

[Ben_in_Canada]

Hope not a fata

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Because Asians and Hispanics don't feel targeted by the police. They don't feel the tension in day to day life. If an Asian guy got shot by the police either

A) He deserved to be shot
B) It was a mistake by the police

A mistake is of course hard to accept but the victim wasn't targeted by police, it was just a mistake. They accept that.

Blacks feel like the policeman shot Brown only because he was black.

One of the things I have noticed when traveling in the US is level of subtle racism that exists in many of the places I've been to. From my perspective, there definitely appears to be a subtle caste system in place, and blacks tend to occupy the lowest tier, working the most menial jobs. My perspective may be flawed due to the relatively short periods of time I head to the states, as well as limited exposure (i.e.: I'm usually at sporting venues), but it is disconcerting to see how institutionalized this level of racism seems to be.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

One of the things I have noticed when traveling in the US is level of subtle racism that exists in many of the places I've been to. From my perspective, there definitely appears to be a subtle caste system in place, and blacks tend to occupy the lowest tier, working the most menial jobs. My perspective may be flawed due to the relatively short periods of time I head to the states, as well as limited exposure (i.e.: I'm usually at sporting venues), but it is disconcerting to see how institutionalized this level of racism seems to be.

I'd argue its quite similar for blacks there as it is for Natives in Canada (minus all the subsidies and gov't assistance). They often can never get a leg up and get trapped in a cycle of alcohol/drug abuse and/or poverty and it is extremely hard for them to get out of it. Same amount of racism here towards them as there is in many areas in the US for blacks.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

One of the things I have noticed when traveling in the US is level of subtle racism that exists in many of the places I've been to. From my perspective, there definitely appears to be a subtle caste system in place, and blacks tend to occupy the lowest tier, working the most menial jobs. My perspective may be flawed due to the relatively short periods of time I head to the states, as well as limited exposure (i.e.: I'm usually at sporting venues), but it is disconcerting to see how institutionalized this level of racism seems to be.

The flaw may be to assume it has everything to do with skin colour. I work a professional job side by side with black people and I see very little if any racism in the work place. From what I can tell blacks seem to be proportionally represented at every level of management and in the executive positions. Living in a middle class suburb, I'd say there is not really a whole lot more racism than you'd expect in a similar neighbourhood in Calgary. Blacks and whites are strongly integrated, go to the same schools, go to the same colleges, get same jobs, etc.

In the inner city is a different story though. There are definitely communities that are 100% black as in you can't find a non-black person living there. There you will find crappy schools, cycles of violence, no hope but crime or crappy jobs, etc. The answers aren't easy though. And a lot of things that were attempted have backfired. I watched a program on a thriving black school pre-integration, that was destroyed by integration. The school had black teachers from the community that were very interested in improving the community, were well respected, etc. The white teachers that were moved there and didn't want to be there, weren't respected and the school fell apart. There are also programs here that identify students in inner city schools that have strong potential. They take them out of the schools and put them all together in one school. That school has had great results and the students are going on to great colleges and getting out of that cycle, which is really a great thing. The downside is that they've removed all the decent students from the crappy school and further deteriorated those schools.