Police shooting of unarmed teen leads to protests and Riot

[remember2004]

Everyone thats commenting that these people shouldn't have been shot are any of you in law enforcement or going to be? It's honestly really easy to criticize either side here and people can blame the cop all they want but until you're in that situation you really don't have a say of "what should have happened" including myself. An example would be here locally in the past months. One guy got shot in a hotel room because they were faced with a "dangerous situation" well who actually knew it was dangerous? Only the officers present and we haven't implicated the body cameras yet so we don't know what actually happened. I know for this case they tried to taze him first but that didn't work but then there was enough that they could have subdued him but then again, I wasn't there and don't know what I would do in that situation. Then a second incident in downtown, a man pulled out a metal pipe and the police shot him, could they have tazed him first? (not sure if they tried or just shot him right away) possibly but they decided to shoot him right away.
Most of the videos show one side and its bias side towards the victims and they shouldn't deserve what they got but then there are also some bad cops out there that go way too far. When race gets involved #### just hits the fan and people automatically start making societal norm judgements of why they got shot. Watching videos online an individual can only get so much knowledge from it and decide what happened.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-officer.html

In this video here there's nothing that shows the officer was doing anything wrong except doing his job. These are the few tragic/rare cases that do happen and is unfortunate. I know in the States the police are really bad and abuse their power, not all but some. I know luckily in Calgary here the CPS is pretty good. If you show them the respect that they deserve they will also do the same. Anyone can disagree with me all they want I'm okay with that but I'm just saying its really hard to judge what the actions of officers should be until you're in that situation. I can easily say "OH I would have went up to the victim and subdued him with hand to hand combat" instead of shooting him but in reality who knows what the outcome could be thats why I believe the process for becoming an officer should be more strict and thorough. If anyone has looked at applying for the CPS its honestly pretty tough, but I believe it should be harder to get in so we don't have any incidents happen like those of in the states.

[Winnie]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Police shootings, arrests, incarceration, application of the death penalty, convictions.... you name it, it all happens more frequently to black Americans by a wide margin.

These things also happen more frequently to male Americans than they do to female Americans. Sexism is also rampant.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Winnie

These things also happen more frequently to male Americans than they do to female Americans. Sexism is also rampant.

Thank Jesus someone finally had the guts to say this!

The female cops, police chiefs, judges, and politicians that run the show in the States clearly have it out for men.

If only there was a fair level of male representation (white male at that) in the political and justice systems down there, things wouldn't be so goddamn unfair!

When they've fixed this injustice, it'd be nice to go after the sexism in the NHL. You never see female coaches get fired or players get cut.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by pylon

If this is the case, what are these protesters criminals going to do? Say, "Oops... sorry." Or, alternately, say "This report is a total fabrication and lizard people, and NWO, and they're stealing my thoughts."

Protesting is what they call a "right" in America. Thousands of people protested peacefully, but you've just painted them all as criminals. To suggest otherwise is, apparently, akin to believing that it's all a conspiracy involving space lizards.

And you believe this guy severed his own spine after he was dragged, screaming in pain, into a police van and then ended up being taken to a close-by hospital an hour and a half later, where he died. This is what you believe to be the most likely scenario.

Lizard people indeed. And call the Rockefeller's while we're at it.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by pylon

And this has come out, and it is my personal opinion of what likely led to his broken neck:

A couple things. First, the anonymous other prisoner never saw anything. He heard banging on the wall.

Far more importantly, the prisoner was the third stop the police made while transporting Gray by the police's own admission. The first, according to the police, was to put him in leg irons for being irate. The second time they found him on the floor requesting medical attention. This is before the other prisoner was even picked up.

Not during the initial arrest or three subsequent stops was Freddie Gray properly restrained. If the narrative the police want to construct is that Freddie Gray severed his own spine, they still completely failed to follow the mandate to restrain him with a seatbelt. He was in their custody, they absolutely have a duty to provide reasonable protection to the individuals in their custody - even if it means from themselves. They failed. Completely. Even under the best circumstances they are still responsible and every protester has a right to be furious. Under no circumstances would I condone the violence and rioting though.

And while I'm all for the waiting for evidence approach, if we're jumping to conclusions the far more obvious one is that this was a nickel ride and not the case of someone severing his own spine as a #### you to the cops. Maybe you can accidentally forget to restrain a person the first time, when you have to stop multiple times and at one point he's on the floor requesting medical attention the very least you can do is put the damn seatbelt on him.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Protesting is what they call a "right" in America. Thousands of people protested peacefully, but you've just painted them all as criminals. To suggest otherwise is, apparently, akin to believing that it's all a conspiracy involving space lizards.

And you believe this guy severed his own spine after he was dragged, screaming in pain, into a police van and then ended up being taken to a close-by hospital an hour and a half later, where he died. This is what you believe to be the most likely scenario.

Lizard people indeed. And call the Rockefeller's while we're at it.

Firstly, I am talking about the people that opted to loot, riot, and destroy businesses, not the ones that protested peacefully. Anyone that has destroyed public property, assaulted police officers, or destroyed businesses, is not a protester, they are criminals. Period. It is written nowhere in any American law book that this is legal behaviour.

Secondly, this man was a convicted felon with a rap sheet longer than this thread, including burglary, assault and drug dealing. He was a piece of human scum. Did he deserve to die? No. Did the Police have good cause to keep tabs on him, absolutely. I would not want that man as my neighbour, and nor would you. Regardless of the colour of his skin.

http://heavy.com/news/2015/04/freddi...gray-arrested/

Thirdly, he had already had a personal injury settlement for a lead paint lawsuit which he seemed to be blaming his problems on, which he was receiving an annuity. Perhaps he was thinking this was another opportunity for a lawsuit to make someone else pay for his terrible life decisions. It is not at all uncommon for criminals to throw themselves on the ground, and attempt to injure themselves to get lawsuits against police departments. He was not belted into the van, and could have been thrashing around in the back tying to cut, injure or bruise himself. There are numerous videos online of suspects in custody, in cruisers, and jail cells, doing exactly that.

Lastly, I am getting very tired of this argument being about black people being singled out and persecuted simply because of skin colour. Are more black people per capita killed by cops. Yes. Is it because they are black? No. It is because they are unfortunate victims of a socio-economic situation that has put them in an extreme cycle of poverty and crime. You cannot blame a young black man for resorting to a life of crime when he has next to no options otherwise. He is being stereotyped by employers, he is at an extreme economic disadvantage as his parents survived the same tragic set of circumstances, and the cycle repeats itself. But regardless of those circumstances, crime cannot go unpunished. Whether it is the disadvantaged African American from the projects, or the hillbilly piece of white trash cooking meth.

The saddest, most ignored fact of all however, is the person most likely to kill a black man, is another black man, and that is the biggest tragedy.

These people should not be protesting against police violence, they should be protesting against the terrible conditions in which they are living, the seeming re-borth of racism, and against the a-holes inside their own neighbourhoods leading their children to this life of crime.

Anyone with half a brain, and with any Canadian black acquaintances can tell you, there is nothing different about an African Canadian than an Anglo-Canadian besides outward appearance. Because we have a society that embraces multiculturalism, and equal opportunity. Unfortunately, rampant racism, which the internet has IMO fully re-ignited into America, has pushed the equal rights movement back decades, and while most of the Western world is moving forward, The United States seems to be moving backwards.

Lastly, IMO, you're a solid, funny and well educated poster. However your passive aggressive insults get tiring sometimes. You have a very smug way about arguing a point sometimes, and a very talented way of blatantly mislabelling what people said to forward your point. In no way was I painting 'every protester' as a criminal. And if that is what you took away from that statement, I might actually begin to question the educated part of my opinion of you.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

A couple things. First, the anonymous other prisoner never saw anything. He heard banging on the wall.

Far more importantly, the prisoner was the third stop the police made while transporting Gray by the police's own admission. The first, according to the police, was to put him in leg irons for being irate. The second time they found him on the floor requesting medical attention. This is before the other prisoner was even picked up.

Not during the initial arrest or three subsequent stops was Freddie Gray properly restrained. If the narrative the police want to construct is that Freddie Gray severed his own spine, they still completely failed to follow the mandate to restrain him with a seatbelt. He was in their custody, they absolutely have a duty to provide reasonable protection to the individuals in their custody - even if it means from themselves. They failed. Completely. Even under the best circumstances they are still responsible and every protester has a right to be furious. Under no circumstances would I condone the violence and rioting though.

And while I'm all for the waiting for evidence approach, if we're jumping to conclusions the far more obvious one is that this was a nickel ride and not the case of someone severing his own spine as a #### you to the cops. Maybe you can accidentally forget to restrain a person the first time, when you have to stop multiple times and at one point he's on the floor requesting medical attention the very least you can do is put the damn seatbelt on him.

I am not disagreeing with a lot of what you are saying here, and I do believe there is also the possibility they were slamming on the brakes to rough him up as well. But the prisoners did not indicate that.
There is however, a lot of facts being omitted from both sides.

The seatbelt mandate was literally 3 days old, and delivered to the officers via an email. It is very likely many of these officers ignored the email or simply had not gotten around to reading it yet. It is unlikely it was a malicious over sight.

And also I am not insinuating he purposely broke his neck. I think there could be a high likelihood, he may have tried to hurt himself, and somehow managed to go way too far, being it the combined movement of the van, or as others have said, possibly aggravating an pre-existing injury from a car accident apparently he was in days earlier. Broken spines are weird. I fractured a vertebrae in my back when I was 16, kept playing hockey for 2 weeks, and finally a made it to the doctor when I couldn't get out of bed one morning.

So who really knows what extreme or obscure events ended up contributing to his death. At the end of the day, unless there was a camera in that van, nobody will no for sure.

[Winnie]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Thank Jesus someone finally had the guts to say this!

The female cops, police chiefs, judges, and politicians that run the show in the States clearly have it out for men.

If only there was a fair level of male representation (white male at that) in the political and justice systems down there, things wouldn't be so goddamn unfair!

When they've fixed this injustice, it'd be nice to go after the sexism in the NHL. You never see female coaches get fired or players get cut.

Exactly. Time for women to tear the Dome apart!!!

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by pylon

The seatbelt mandate was literally 3 days old, and delivered to the officers via an email. It is very likely many of these officers ignored the email or simply had not gotten around to reading it yet. It is unlikely it was a malicious over sight.

Still, prior to that it was discretionary. They stopped multiple times under the guise of trying to restrain them, and by their own admission Gray was requesting medical attention during one of those stops, even under the old mandate it would be hard if not impossible to argue that they didn't reach the conclusion that he should have been buckled up.

Their own Police Commissioner has said as much.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/freddie...tiny-1.3047140

But Police Commissioner Anthony Batts said Thursday that here are no circumstances under which a prisoner should not be wearing a seatbelt during transport and "that's part of our investigation.

"Much like any other vehicle, you seatbelt people in and it's our responsibility to make sure people are safely transported," Batts said, "especially if their hands are behind their back."

They also failed to provide him medical attention.
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/0...y-lacked-belt/

Police say when the lengthy foot chase ended along the 1700 block of Presbury Street, Gray should have immediately received medical attention—but never did.
“Our police employees failed to get him medical attention in a timely manner multiple times,” the commissioner said.

There's still an investigation taking place, but based on the commissioner's words it seems that at the very least the police were incompetent that resulted in gross negligence and ultimately the death of a 25 year old. The blue shield does not seem to be protecting these officers very well, either Batts is a progressive Police Commissioner or they know these officers ####ed up. Maybe a little bit of both.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

Statistic that you used to determine more blacks die though legal intervention than whites? CDC will work as its impartial.

I'll take the death penalty stat as well.

I don't think I need to post a stat showing execution of blacks is grossly disproportionate as compared to whites, you can easily find that yourself.

According to a recent study by Professor Katherine Beckett of the University of Washington, jurors in Washington are three times more likely to recommend a death sentence for a black defendant than for a white defendant in a similar case.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-and-death-penalty

Even though blacks and whites are murder victims in nearly equal numbers of crimes, 80% of people executed since the death penalty was reinstated have been executed for murders involving white victims.

This study, the most comprehensive ever conducted on the death penalty in North Carolina, was released by researchers from the University of North Carolina. The study, based on data collected from court records of 502 murder cases from 1993 to 1997, found that race plays a significant role in who gets the death penalty. Prof. Jack Boger and Dr. Isaac Unah of the University of North Carolina found that defendants whose victims are white are 3.5 times more likely to be sentenced to death than those with non-white victims.

A review of the federal death penalty by the Justice Department, released on September 12, 2000, found numerous racial and geographic disparities. The report revealed that 80% of the cases submitted by federal prosecutors for death penalty review in the past five years have involved racial minorities as defendants. In more than half of those cases, the defendant was African-American. Attorney General Janet Reno said she was "sorely troubled" by the results of the report and has ordered United States attorneys to help explain the racial and ethnic disparities.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Mysterious fourth stop, previously undisclosed, had been discovered during the course of the investigation. Might be inconsequential, but it does cast some doubt onto the accuracy of the officers' accounts of the story.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...ddie-gray-stop

It's refreshing as it seems like Anthony Batts and the department have been using the investigation to actually investigate and not just provide evidence in support of their officers. He's been critical of his officers' actions in not restraining Gray properly and not calling for medical, now he's intentionally indicating publicly that the officers' stories aren't matching up to the actual evidence. Appears that the Blue Shield isn't showing in Baltimore.

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I don't think I need to post a stat showing execution of blacks is grossly disproportionate as compared to whites, you can easily find that yourself.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-and-death-penalty

Blacks are disproportionately represent because their felony rate is more than three-fold that of whites.

If you look at straight numbers, more whites have been killed by police, executed by the state and serve time on death row than blacks.

The bigger question is why is there not a city burning every time a white person is killed by the police?

[Flash Walken]

White out, are black people 3 times as likely to commit crimes as white people?

Are black people by nature of their ethnicity more prone to crime?

[polak]

I'm all for addressing the systematic oppression of African Americans in the US. It is actually a pretty serious problem.

That being said, these riots have NOTHING to do with that oppression. It's not even the fact that they're destroying property and doing illegal things. You know? I'd be completely fine with an oppressed group saying "No More" and fighting back. But that is not what they are doing in any way, shape or form.

They are not fighting back and going and attacking police stations. They are not fighting back and going after big business. They are not fighting back and attacking the affluent areas. They are not fighting back against anybody.

They are fighting their neighbor. They are fighting each other? Why? For the sake of fighting and because they are pieces of ####. How is looting your next door neighbors convenience store going to help your fight against oppression? How is stealing some TV's and some beer fighting oppression? It's not. None of this is fighting oppression.

These are guy p***y ass criminals going for a quick buck and the easily attained joy of breaking #### because there's no one guarding it. Not only that, they're just digging themselves a hole to further their oppression.

This is the equivalent of the early Americans wanting to fight the oppression of their English rulers by burning down their next door neighbors farm. You're sure showing them!

Those "oppressed" people rioting like idiots are scum. Open fire.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by polak

I'm all for addressing the systematic oppression of African Americans in the US. It is actually a pretty serious problem.

That being said, these riots have NOTHING to do with that oppression. It's not even the fact that they're destroying property and doing illegal things. You know? I'd be completely fine with an oppressed group saying "No More" and fighting back. But that is not what they are doing in any way, shape or form.

They are not fighting back and going and attacking police stations. They are not fighting back and going after big business. They are not fighting back and attacking the affluent areas. They are not fighting back against anybody.

They are fighting their neighbor. They are fighting each other? Why? For the sake of fighting and because they are pieces of ####. How is looting your next door neighbors convenience store going to help your fight against oppression? How is stealing some TV's and some beer fighting oppression? It's not. None of this is fighting oppression.

These are guy p***y ass criminals going for a quick buck and the easily attained joy of breaking ####. Not only that, they're just digging themselves a hole to further their oppression.

Those "oppressed" people rioting like idiots are scum. Open fire.

To be clear, re bolded part.


You would be fine if they rioted and attacked the areas/entities you mentioned.

[polak]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

To be clear, re bolded part.


You would be fine if they rioted and attacked the areas/entities you mentioned.

If they were, then I'd buy the "Oppressed people fighting back" angle.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

Blacks are disproportionately represent because their felony rate is more than three-fold that of whites.

If you look at straight numbers, more whites have been killed by police, executed by the state and serve time on death row than blacks.

The bigger question is why is there not a city burning every time a white person is killed by the police?

Whites are 78% of the us population. Blacks are 13%.

Rates of police death, execution, time on death row etc are all much higher for blacks.

You can't just compare the totals when there are 6 times more whites than blacks.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Whites are 78% of the us population. Blacks are 13%.

Rates of police death, execution, time on death row etc are all much higher for blacks.

You can't just compare the totals when there are 6 times more whites than blacks.

Why are African Americans so highly represented versus Latin Americans? Genuine question.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by polak

If they were, then I'd buy the "Oppressed people fighting back" angle.

You didn't answer the question.


Would you be fine with rioting against the areas/entities you mentioned?

[polak]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

You didn't answer the question.


Would you be fine rioting against the areas/entities you mentioned?

Cause it's a pretty loaded question. Is it your sole purpose to bait people into saying something that could get them jumped on? Literally any time I see an even slightly controversial post, you are two lines under it with a passively aggressive post trying to goat them into saying something they might regret.

I wouldn't be happy or "okay" with any rioting but at this point, the system is pretty stacked against people living in low income areas in the USA so I could sympathize with the people who are tired of it, see the odds stacked against them from the get-go and decide they have had enough.

The US is primed for some what of a civil war and I couldn't really fault the oppressed for actually fighting back. These riots in Baltimore are nothing of the sort though so I don't know why you're bring this up?

Civil wars aren't fought against your own side.