City authorities are running a criminal inquiry into his death and the US Department of Justice is investigating for potential civil rights charges. The six officers involved in Gray’s arrest have been suspended.
Batts confirmed to the Guardian on Friday that one of the officers was declining to speak with investigators, citing their constitutional rights.
Quote:
Batts confirmed that Gray, who was in leg irons, was not wearing a seatbelt in the vehicle as required by the department’s policy. “There are no excuses for that. Period,” he said. Past prisoners in Baltimore have died from injuries sustained when they were thrown around the back of police vehicles due to fast or erratic driving and abrupt stops.
The police commissioner reiterated that his officers “failed to get medical attention” for Gray despite his requests for an asthma inhaler and other complaints. Batts said medics should have been called to the scene of Gray’s arrest.
Quote:
Batts said on Thursday that the second prisoner, who was separated from Gray by a metal wall, told investigators that Gray was “was still moving around, that he was kicking and making noises” until the van arrived at the station. Police are declining to identify the man due to his status as a witness in the criminal inquiry.
Last edited by combustiblefuel; 04-28-2015 at 11:19 AM.
You're entitled to your opinion, it is the internet afterall.
But I think that's part of the issue in threads like this. Posters tend to post their judgments having little understanding of what it is they are posting about.
Each encounter is treated based on a set of facts at the time of the encounter. Police can't shoot someone based on what the individual has done in the past (even recent past). Will it change the tactics of the encounter? Ofcourse. But police still must make a decision based on what they are presented with at the time of the encounter. If deadly force can not be articulated, it simply isn't an option.
Very true. Each encounter is based on its own set of facts. However, that includes the circumstances involved in the crime. That includes the crime the police are brought in to investigate. Just a wiki article on basic US law...
Quote:
For deadly force to be constitutional when an arrest is taking place, it must be the reasonable choice under all the circumstances at the time... According to the code, officers should not use deadly force unless the action will not endanger innocent bystanders, the suspect used deadly force in committing the crime, or the officers believe a delay in arrest may result in injury or death to other people.... Circumstances that are taken into consideration are the severity of the offense, how much of a threat the suspect poses, and the suspect's attempts to resist or flee the police officer. When arresting someone for a misdemeanor, the police have the right to shoot the alleged offender only in self-defense....When police officers are arresting someone for a felony, the courts have given them a little more leeway.
Knowing the suspect likely just killed two people and is charging the cop would most defiintely be a reasonable circumstance for deadly force. I suspect if he were six foot eight and on 'roids it might be a bit clearer. But no doubt he would have been justified in shooting the guy.
I don't care what colour, race or religion you are, burning up your own town, and destroying the businesses of people that choose to set up shop in your sketchy neighbourhood, is complete garbage, asinine, and makes you a thug. Period. Great, answer violence, with violence X 10. It's just like some of those videos I see on liveleak, where some guy steals a cell phone, and a vigilante crowd of 20 people, beat him to death then set him on fire. Respond to a crime with 10X worse crime.
The findings of what happened to this man, and how he broke his neck, still aren't even determined. But it is clear he wasn't shot in cold blood, it sounds like either excessive force that lead to an injury, or a tragic accident. Something happened in the back of that van, and from what I believe I read there was another prisoner in the van. Could he have done something? Did Freddie go full crazy mode, and somehow do this to himself? There are a ton of videos out there of people in cuffs, flailing and smashing their heads against windows of cruisers in a state of rage.
Let's not be naive here either. I am sure there is some outrage about what happened by some of these protesters, but the majority of them are opportunists look for a free pass to go on a crime spree, and score a sweet PS4, or case of booze.
I don't care what colour, race or religion you are, burning up your own town, and destroying the businesses of people that choose to set up shop in your sketchy neighbourhood, is complete garbage, asinine, and makes you a thug. Period. Great, answer violence, with violence X 10. It's just like some of those videos I see on liveleak, where some guy steals a cell phone, and a vigilante crowd of 20 people, beat him to death then set him on fire. Respond to a crime with 10X worse crime.
The findings of what happened to this man, and how he broke his neck, still aren't even determined. But it is clear he wasn't shot in cold blood, it sounds like either excessive force that lead to an injury, or a tragic accident. Something happened in the back of that van, and from what I believe I read there was another prisoner in the van. Could he have done something? Did Freddie go full crazy mode, and somehow do this to himself? There are a ton of videos out there of people in cuffs, flailing and smashing their heads against windows of cruisers in a state of rage.
Let's not be naive here either. I am sure there is some outrage about what happened by some of these protesters, but the majority of them are opportunists look for a free pass to go on a crime spree, and score a sweet PS4, or case of booze.
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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I don't care what colour, race or religion you are, burning up your own town, and destroying the businesses of people that choose to set up shop in your sketchy neighbourhood, is complete garbage, asinine, and makes you a thug. Period. Great, answer violence, with violence X 10. It's just like some of those videos I see on liveleak, where some guy steals a cell phone, and a vigilante crowd of 20 people, beat him to death then set him on fire. Respond to a crime with 10X worse crime.
The findings of what happened to this man, and how he broke his neck, still aren't even determined. But it is clear he wasn't shot in cold blood, it sounds like either excessive force that lead to an injury, or a tragic accident. Something happened in the back of that van, and from what I believe I read there was another prisoner in the van. Could he have done something? Did Freddie go full crazy mode, and somehow do this to himself? There are a ton of videos out there of people in cuffs, flailing and smashing their heads against windows of cruisers in a state of rage.
Let's not be naive here either. I am sure there is some outrage about what happened by some of these protesters, but the majority of them are opportunists look for a free pass to go on a crime spree, and score a sweet PS4, or case of booze.
Freddie Gray video.
See my earlier post . The other prisoner was seperated by a metal wall. It's also not far fetched he was injured while the drove around as death have happened from officer's who perform "Rough rides". The department had to change there policy to require prisoners to be buckeled in.
His spine was severed 80%.
We dont know what happened but between his arrest and 45 mins between the ambulance call. One officer is refusing to co-operate and they are focusing on the 2nd stop. Police cheif says officers failed to get medical help . Six officers were suspended immediately after the incident almost a week before any protests or riot.
Like I said we do not know what happened but sounds like something went completely wrong.
Last edited by combustiblefuel; 04-28-2015 at 12:20 PM.
The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
I think, and, I could be wrong here, but MLK was speaking out against (in part at least) Malcom X's much more militant view on how to achieve racial equality. MLK was very much against Black Panther violence and creating a black "army".
Mass protest, civil disobedience, all are fair game. Where MLK stands on rioting? I have no idea. I guess I could google it. But I'm lazy and just ate amazing filipino food
I think, and, I could be wrong here, but MLK was speaking out against (in part at least) Malcom X's much more militant view on how to achieve racial equality. MLK was very much against Black Panther violence and creating a black "army".
Mass protest, civil disobedience, all are fair game. Where MLK stands on rioting? I have no idea. I guess I could google it. But I'm lazy and just ate amazing filipino food
Absolutely in favour of this. But what is going on in Baltimore is neither, I almost wouldn't even classify it as a riot. It is a crime spree.
If there's one thing people fear more than the cops...it's mom.
Quote:
A Baltimore woman took action when she saw her son hanging out with violent demonstrators Monday.
The woman, identified by ABC affiliate WMAR as the boy's mother, was watching television when she saw her son throwing rocks at police, the station reported.
"Are you kidding me?" she's heard saying. The station did not identify her by name
It's an unfortunate situation, but the police were sent to a high-risk situation where a potentially violent (based on the 911 call) man appears to approach them with a weapon. It was a dangerous situation for them. They did what they were trained to do, and before we jump on the anti-American police, most police forces in the world are trained very similar in handling assailants with a deadly weapon.
This is just blatantly untrue. The US is the only western country were rank police are commonly trained and expected to use firearms with use of force procedures that are essentially (and in some states literally) copied from the military. Many western military personnel serving in hostile countries actually have stricter ROE than the US police have towards their own citizens.
Some US servicemen have noted after watching videos like this is that they've had stricter regulations against use of deadly force while performing similar duties in countries such as Iraq or Afghanistan.
Elsewhere in the west it's pretty much assumed that if two cops can't handle a crazy guy with a screwdriver without killing him, they probably shouldn't be cops at all. In many countries a screwup of that magnitude will get you fired automatically, and the only question left is whether or not you go to jail for it too.
There are probably dictatorships in the world where you would be statistically less likely to die in the hands of the police than in the US. The reason we can't say that for sure isn't the lack of statistics from dictatorships, it's the poor statistics from the US. That alone should tell you that there is something seriously wrong there.
It just isn't "just what cops do". It's the US police, their poor training (in many places much shorter than in any other western country), their lax rules for use of deadly of deadly force, and very probably their attitude problems too.
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Very true. Each encounter is based on its own set of facts. However, that includes the circumstances involved in the crime. That includes the crime the police are brought in to investigate. Just a wiki article on basic US law...
Knowing the suspect likely just killed two people and is charging the cop would most defiintely be a reasonable circumstance for deadly force. I suspect if he were six foot eight and on 'roids it might be a bit clearer. But no doubt he would have been justified in shooting the guy.
Sorry, but that wiki article isn't accurate.
Reread what I wrote.
An individual who used "deadly force" while committing a crime will, most assuredly see a much different response from police in terms of tactics. That fact, in it of itself does NOT mean lethal force can be used by police.
The part you should have highlighted was the "all circumstances at the time".
In your original video link, I don't think lethal force could have been justified at any point in that video.
Elsewhere in the west it's pretty much assumed that if two cops can't handle a crazy guy with a screwdriver without killing him, they probably shouldn't be cops at all. In many countries a screwup of that magnitude will get you fired automatically, and the only question left is whether or not you go to jail for it too.
Except for Australia where a 22 year old woman with aspergers and difficulty communicating was shot dead by 5 police officers for wielding a knife and advancing towards them.
Or in Calgary, where a man under the influence was shot dead by officers for wielding a syringe and advancing towards them.
Even the British police AFO allows, or calls, for firearm usage in dangerous situations involving weapons and potential for injury.
Didn't that guy literally pull the taser leads out of his chest as his charged at them with the syringe?
I believe so. One of the reasons that tasers aren't always the best choice for deadly situations in close circumstances - like say a mentally unstable man threatening to chop people up lunging at an officer a couple feet away.
Sorry about the video. It's a cop in Ohio who pulled over a double murder suspect. The suspect gets out of the car and charges the cop...cop has a body cam. Cop's gun is drawn. Cop runs backwards for a long time, falls over, still doesn't shoot the guy. Amazing video. Suspect eventually gives up. So, seeing that, the I would imagine the cops could have given the screw driver guy a bit more of a chance unless they were pinned in a tight spot....which they might have been.
I think it is...the guy just committed a double homicide. Michael Brown charged a cop and apparently it was a deadly force situation.
To your first point, the video shows that it was a confined area hemmed in by vehicles near the front door. The police in that case are responsible for safeguarding not only their lives, but the life of the mother. Since the subject was so close to the officers, it would have taken a split second for him to lunge forward and stab someone.
As for the Michael Brown situation. You failed to mention the physical altercation and the attempt to gain control of Darren Wilson's gun. Both of which were undoubtedly huge factors in the grand jury's decisions in that case.
