May 2015 Provincial Election Thread v2

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by polak

So? Boo hoo?

Also that's quite a bit of hyperbole? Helmets? It's not illegal to ride a bike without a helmet. Kids helping out? By that do you mean chores or doing actual unpaid labor?

It's 2015. The fact that all of that was going unchecked is a bit of mini miracle. They should be thrilled that it lasted as long as it has.

We have become an all or nothing society, I do not believe I stated any hyperbole. PPE is a part of OHS, many cities have bylaws stating children under "X" age have to wear a helmet. And really the difference between chores/ responsibilities and "unpaid labor" could not be more grey. As a kid (I grew up on a farm) I received a monthly allowance which covered both regular chores and farm work. I was also provided a vehicle and burned farm gas as I got older. During the summer I got paid more depending on what the work was.

Furthermore kids do a lot of what they are told not to do. We were always told to not to play in the grain truck/ Or run on the bales, or tease the young bulls and on and on and on. We did all of these things and worse, the last thing any parent needs is to be charged or have their farm operation suspended due to kids being kids. The three liitle girls who suffocated in the grain truck could have been any kid from any farm. Our parents told us to not play in the grain truck, well we did it all the time.

[polak]

Yeah just cause it was like that, doesn't mean it should continue to go unchecked. It's not like they're going beyond what other industries have to deal with it.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

We have become an all or nothing society, I do not believe I stated any hyperbole. PPE is a part of OHS, many cities have bylaws stating children under "X" age have to wear a helmet. And really the difference between chores/ responsibilities and "unpaid lbor as city folk like to call it" could not be more grey. As a kid (I grew up on a farm) I received a monthly allowance which covered both regular chores and farm work. I was also provided a vehicle and burned farm gas as I got older. During the summer I got paid more depending on what the work was.

Do you have cited incidences of this slippery slope fallacy occurring in any other province this has been enacted since, since most have had this on the book for well over a decade?

Or are farm communities just getting up in arms about something that the rest of the world adopted in the 90s?

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Do you have cited incidences of this slippery slope fallacy occurring in any other province this has been enacted since, since most have had this on the book for well over a decade?

Or are farm communities just getting up in arms about something that the rest of the world adopted in the 90s?

Just stating a couple of the fears that are out there. I don't want to blast anyone for trying to bring safety awareness, pre work safety meetings and equipment inspections are just two examples of tasks that should be routine at any job, the fear though is that OHS will go far beyond this as it has in most industries. The biggest part of OHS is the endless amount of paperwork, none of which will stop a bull from charging, make a child listen or keep cows from calving in a wintery blizzard.

[VladtheImpaler]

A few things...

1) Of course, farm operations should be subject to a safety regime. Mind you, if it's family members working for "free", they should be able to do whatever they want. I once represented a trucker who got hurt while making a delivery to a farm because there was no safety guard rail on a loading platform. That kind of thing is ridiculous and needs be subject to oversight.

2) The NDP fundraiser last night was very lame. Cash bar, FFS. It was like a bad wedding.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Just stating a couple of the fears that are out there. I don't want to blast anyone for trying to bring safety awareness to any job, pre work safety meetings and equipment inspections are just two examples of tasks that should be routine at any job, the fear though is that OHS will go far beyond this as it has in most industries. The biggest part of OHS is the endless amount of paperwork, none of which will stop a bull from charging, make a child listen or keep cows from calving in a wintery blizzard.

You act like random incidents don't happen on other hazardous worksites. These issues, while specific, are not unique to farms.

If farmers want to avoid paperwork, they need to ensure their worksites are safe and in compliance with regulation. They are not special snowflakes.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Slava

With regard to the carbon tax, has there been any announcement or information made available for the income cut-off for rebates, or how this will be structured? Like at what income level do they begin "rebates"?

They've talked about cutting a cheque twice a year, to the bottom 60% of households by income.

There's been a little wiggling on whether its 50%, 60%, or 2/3.

There's also been suggestions lower income earners will be better off, not just made whole.

I'll take a wild guess that it'll be 50-100 a month paid semi annually, with clawback a starting at about $60k a year. That's going by their other low income supports they've recently announced. We won't know for sure until the budget I don't think. Though they may release bits of good news candy when they need it between now and then.

Incidentally, with the new AB low income supports, the Feds family cheques, and now the carbon Notley bucks a lower income family of 4 is going to be about 10k richer. That's a big change. I hope they find a way to not punish people who have a chance to earn more but might otherwise be financially better off staying unemployed or under employed.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

You act like random incidents don't happen on other hazardous worksites. These issues, while specific, are not unique to farms.

If farmers want to avoid paperwork, they need to ensure their worksites are safe and in compliance with regulation. They are not special snowflakes.

Which Farmers have had no input on. The potential costs of retrofitting corrals, shops and storage facilities, will financially cripple farmers. Might as well collapse the Ag industry to go along with the Oil industry.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Which Farmers have had no input on. The potential costs of retrofitting corrals, shops and storage facilities, will financially cripple farmers. Might as well collapse the Ag industry to go along with the Oil industry.

I thought similar regulation exists in every other province except AB?

Edit: Ohhh are you saying the one time capital cost will hurt farmers when they have had nearly 2 years to prep? Its a shame our government wants the ability to investigate accidents.....

[PsYcNeT]

Farmers have had two years to ensure their worksites are safe enough to be on par with the minimum standards followed by every other business in the province. They had the same opportunity for input as every other company in the province, it's not like OH&S hasn't existed since like, I dunno, the 70s or 80s or anything.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

A few things...

1) Of course, farm operations should be subject to a safety regime. Mind you, if it's family members working for "free", they should be able to do whatever they want. I once represented a trucker who got hurt while making a delivery to a farm because there was no safety guard rail on a loading platform. That kind of thing is ridiculous and needs be subject to oversight.

2) The NDP fundraiser last night was very lame. Cash bar, FFS. It was like a bad wedding.

1) You went to an NDP fundraiser?

2) You did not enjoy capitalist cash bar?

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by troutman

1) You went to an NDP fundraiser?

2) You did not enjoy capitalist cash bar?

As mentioned above, free tickets. Or so I thought until I saw the CASH BAR! Damn double-dealing communists.
A lot of homeless Conservative supporters wandering aimlessly around the room, looking for a teat to latch on to. You could tell because they had the good suits. A lot of various union activists already firmly latched. You could tell because they had the bad suits. Some die-hards from the 70's who had survived long enough to see to see the party of Lenin in power. They were wearing random rags (scarves, sweaters, "wraps"). Actually saw a Lenin clone - unfortunately, did not take his picture. Joe Ceci mumbled out some terrible speech. Notley gave a decent speech - surprisingly tame, given the audience.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

They've talked about cutting a cheque twice a year, to the bottom 60% of households by income.

There's been a little wiggling on whether its 50%, 60%, or 2/3.

There's also been suggestions lower income earners will be better off, not just made whole.

I'll take a wild guess that it'll be 50-100 a month paid semi annually, with clawback a starting at about $60k a year. That's going by their other low income supports they've recently announced. We won't know for sure until the budget I don't think. Though they may release bits of good news candy when they need it between now and then.

Incidentally, with the new AB low income supports, the Feds family cheques, and now the carbon Notley bucks a lower income family of 4 is going to be about 10k richer. That's a big change. I hope they find a way to not punish people who have a chance to earn more but might otherwise be financially better off staying unemployed or under employed.

Wow, $10k? That's incredible really. Interesting that we can eliminate half of the population and say 'your environmental impact is no big deal' and just collect from the other half.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by troutman

1) You went to an NDP fundraiser?

2) You did not enjoy capitalist cash bar?

If you go to a communist fundraiser you'd think your basic needs would be met courtesy of the government.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Farmers have had two years to ensure their worksites are safe enough to be on par with the minimum standards followed by every other business in the province. They had the same opportunity for input as every other company in the province, it's not like OH&S hasn't existed since like, I dunno, the 70s or 80s or anything.

It sure does not sound like that is the case.

http://www.dailyheraldtribune.com/20...py-with-bill-6


Terrance Sweeney, a safety officer, also spoke out against the proposed bill. Although not a farmer himself, Sweeney said he has family members who farm and his wife also works in industry.

"The legislation is being rammed in far too quickly without proper consultation. They should be consulting these people before first and second reading and second reading is today," he said. "Another concern is they're talking bringing in these labour laws into an industry that isn't a business like a construction company or a McDonald's, it's a farm which is a lifestyle... it's a culture and to tell them that you can't have little Johnny out feeding the chickens because he might be injured when he's six or seven, that's how they learn... They learn farming generation to generation to generation."

[PsYcNeT]

I'm not sure "random guy quoted in small town newspaper article"'s opinion is the best source.

I love how a 24 month integration and exemption period is considered "too quick". When it seems more like farmers ignored the original bill and are now blaming the current government for moving forward with a plan that has been in place for years.

"IT'S A CULTURE!" look at all of these special snowflakes with their special snowflake business that is totally unique in the world of business.

[Kavvy]

edit not worth it

[Frequitude]

I do not believe that the intent of the new carbon tax is to transfer wealth from industry and the rich to the poor, but one outcome of the new carbon tax sure does appear to be a transfer of wealth from industry and the rich to the poor.

[IliketoPuck]

Does the carbon tax basically equate to an internal Alberta equalization payment scheme?

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I'm not sure "random guy quoted in small town newspaper article"'s opinion is the best source.

I love how a 24 month integration and exemption period is considered "too quick". When it seems more like farmers ignored the original bill and are now blaming the current government for moving forward with a plan that has been in place for years.

"IT'S A CULTURE!" look at all of these special snowflakes with their special snowflake business that is totally unique in the world of business.

Well a running a family farm is unique, the fact that you cannot acknowledge that should be embarrassing.

I grew up on a farm, my Father was a Construction Worker, an Electrician, a Veterinarian, an Equipment Operator, a Mechanic, a Laborer, a Financial Planner, a Truck Driver, a Cowboy; The list goes on. Very, very, very few professions involves such diverse skills and knowledge, and don't even get me started on what my Mother did.

Again this does not have to be an all or nothing legislation when it comes to OHS and farming, but the fact that the government is fast tracking and plan to have it passed before the fact is part of what is at issue here.