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Old 03-06-2007, 12:06 AM   #41
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This is not what people are up in arms about when it comes to this book/movie/whatever the hell it is. It is statements like "You cannot 'catch' [AIDS] unless you think you can, and thinking you can is inviting it to you".

The people that fall for this stuff are really beyond help anyway, that's the really ironic part about all of this. These people have no concept of causation or correlation, let alone the difference between the two. They can't spot a false dichotomy when they see one. They utilize observational selection subconciously. And probably every person who falls into these traps has very little understanding of science, the scientific method and (specifically, the nature of) statistics.
If you base everything you know only one what science can prove, then I genuinely feel sorry for you. I truly do. Especially since any Scientist any where will be the first to admit that science simply cannot prove everything. Also, you may want to grasp a bit of a better understanding about the Law of Attraction before you fire off examples like those... because I could tell you now that it's that very kind of thinking that gets you contracted with AIDS to begin with.

And no, I don't need anyones help, nor do I desire anyones' approval. I'm doing just fine, now, thanks.

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Old 03-06-2007, 01:36 AM   #42
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Also, you may want to grasp a bit of a better understanding about the Law of Attraction before you fire off examples like those... because I could tell you now that it's that very kind of thinking that gets you contracted with AIDS to begin with.
The only kind of thinking that leads to a healthy adult to contract AIDS is irresponsible thinking. It ain't negative thoughts.

The "Law of Attraction" sounds suspiciously like a law made up by a marketing team, and it appears to be quite successful. Near as I can tell, it's not much more than the "Law of the Little Engine That Could".

It's funny that Oprah is such a champion of the whole thing, considering the circumstances of her own life. I'm pretty sure she didn't get where she is without busting her ass, and while she may have been thinking positively while she did it, it wasn't good feelings that got her where she is.

Good for you though if it works.
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Old 03-06-2007, 03:39 AM   #43
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I believe generally speaking positive thoughts and visualization are good for everyone and if everyone experienced peace and had a satisfying life my world would benefit greatly but everyone doesn't think this way and there are even people who take delight in disrupting successful and happy people. Look what happened to the Prince of Peace.
I don't practise any visualization or positive thinking, I think it's second rate but whatever, I have my own way.
If you don't want AIDS, take precautions and have a positive outlook.

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Old 03-06-2007, 07:09 AM   #44
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It's basically a placebo. But if it makes you happy, go for it.

'What the bleep' was pure and utter bunk though.
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Old 04-09-2007, 02:57 PM   #45
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I just wanted to re-vitalize this thread (if anyone is interested!?). I saw this movie this weekend, and it was pretty good. I think that the movie itself was a little bit hoaky, but the ideas are interesting and I think that it makes sense. I can't say that I learned a lot of new things from the movie, but I still like the ideas.

It has been a few months since the thread was up....anyone trying this? Anyone care to share any stories?
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Old 04-09-2007, 03:41 PM   #46
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I work in a bookstore. That is like Harry Potter for adults! It's incredibly popular!
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Old 04-09-2007, 04:17 PM   #47
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I've been thinking about a new car for months now, but I still don't have one.

But when I go out and buy one then I can tell everyone how my positive thinking got me the new car.
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Old 04-09-2007, 04:25 PM   #48
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What a coincidence I just watch this movie this weekend as well and thought of bumping this thread.

I am a very skeptical person, but I tried to go into this with an open mind. I was given a brief outline of what the secret is by someone at work who saw it on Oprah.

I noticed that the movie seemed to consist of two different but similar ideas that were packaged as one. One idea I thought was good, nothing new, but could still benefit people. The other I thought shared a lot with the first idea, but had an illogical twist that could be very dangerous for some people.

Main idea of the secret:
Positive thinking will result in positive results. Negative thinking will produce negative results. So whatever you have coming to you (positive or negative) is a direct by product of what you've thinking of.

Idea 1
Same as the main idea but coupled with action. Action is the key word here. You must take positive action in the direction of your positive thinking. Dwelling on negative things will only makes things worse. Fairly simple and straight forward. This part of the secret is nothing new. It is essentially a common lifestyle/attitude being used by pretty much the whole of happy people in society.

Idea 2
This is the one that caused me lots of grief. It takes the main idea of the the secret but adds the element of energy and the universe. Positive thinking sends outs positive energy into the universe which is then returned as positive results for the person thinking them. If this sounds the same as Idea 1, it is not. This uses the idea that the universe is always to remain in balance. They mention the idea of a catalogue quite a few times. Basically if you want money and think positively that you are going to make more money, the universe will answer your thoughts and give you more money in the future. Through the use of magic this happens, although in the movie they call it science.

On the other hand if you are dwelling on negative thoughts the universe will send you negative results back. If you are constantly thinking about getting harassed at work, you will. What's the solution to this? Thinking that you won't get harassed at work, and it will stop. Seems simple right? Well according this idea in the movie it is. This idea doesn't involve actually taking matters into your own hands, because it is out of your hands, it is in the hands of the universe.

So if you are thinking, what's the problem with this thinking? Sounds innocent enough. At first I thought this as well, until it got into the medical portion of the movie. Of course the idea is that positive thinking will get you better health, and negative thinking will get you worse health. Well they throw stress into this mix, which as far as I am concerned doesn't fit with this theory at all. They go on to say that you can heal yourself through positive thinking. I am not misquoting this or taking out of context, the movie outlines this quite clearly. As far as medical science is concerned thinking positively cannot heal you. I'll use an extreme example. Positive thinking cannot grow back a missing limb, no matter hard you try.

So on the other side of this theory negative theory will net you negative health. Again this is stupid. People with cancer are asking for it? This is just insulting on a level that I cannot express without mashing my keyboard into my desk. So I digress.

This line of thinking (whatever you have coming to you (positive or negative) is a direct by product of what you've thinking of.) can be taken to other, unexplainable examples by this theory. Such as the holocaust, or really any other atrocity. These "experts" could not possibly make the claim that all the Jews "had this coming" because of their thinking.

This "secret" thinking is so short sighting and illogical it's borderline idiotic. This secret fad is basically repackaged religion in the sense that, your life is not is your hands, but rather in the cosmic forces of the universe. Instead of praying, you think positively. Do we really need more people to refuse medical treatment because they are so gullible as to believe this? The reason I make this case was because there was a women who refused chemotherapy and to have her cancerous breast removed, because she opted for the "the secret" positive thinking and better eating alternative. She had the backing of a homoeopathic "doctor" to administer this treatment.

Some of the experts, such as the chicken soup author, I feel sorry for. It is almost as if he selling short his hard work short for his book. Which he seems to be attributing it to an outside force. A lot of this logic falls into the post hoc fallacy in my mind. "after this therefore because of this. the mistaken notion that simply because one thing happens after another, the first event was a cause of the second event."

To conclude my lengthy post (sorry and thanks for reading) I feel that there is lots of good that can come from portions of the secret. I know it may not seem that I support any of it from the tone of my post, but some of it is good. But some of it is in my mind dangerous and illogical. This "secret" has not been something that has been used by the great minds throughout history. Although they will try and trick you in the movie by quoting famous minds. But rather this is not a secret, but an attitude/mindset that they are selling (and selling lots of) for money, bottom line.

If you would like read more about the secret, there is a good article about it by the Skeptics website. The Secret Behind the Secret. It is an interesting critical read of the secret book/movie, worth checking out.

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Old 04-09-2007, 04:41 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burninator View Post

Main idea of the secret:
Positive thinking will result in positive results. Negative thinking will produce negative results. So whatever you have coming to you (positive or negative) is a direct by product of what you've thinking of.
So on the other side of this theory negative theory will net you negative health. Again this is stupid. People with cancer are asking for it? This is just insulting on a level that I cannot express without mashing my keyboard into my desk. So I digress.

This line of thinking (whatever you have coming to you (positive or negative) is a direct by product of what you've thinking of.) can be taken to other, unexplainable examples by this theory. Such as the holocaust, or really any other atrocity. These "experts" could not possibly make the claim that all the Jews "had this coming" because of their thinking.

To conclude my lengthy post (sorry and thanks for reading) I feel that there is lots of good that can come from portions of the secret. I know it may not seem that I support any of it from the tone of my post, but some of it is good. But some of it is in my mind dangerous and illogical. This "secret" has not been something that has been used by the great minds throughout history. Although they will try and trick you in the movie by quoting famous minds. But rather this is not a secret, but an attitude/mindset that they are selling (and selling lots of) for money, bottom line.
While positive thinking can have an uplifting effect on chronic disease patients (ie cancer, lupis (placebo effect)), its funny the whole spiritual thing. So if you are clinically depressed how the hell do you work yourself out of that??
Also being human and having cognitive ability, we cannot (seemingly) avoid cognitive mapping. People need hope and find it in odd strange sources. ie this book/dvd. Whatever gets you through life I guess...
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Old 04-09-2007, 05:21 PM   #50
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Good post Burninator. People I talk to about it quickly fall back to the Idea 1 when I challenge them about Idea 2, though they don't seem to actually reconsider their beliefs about it.

Most of these people I know who are "into" this don't really suprise me that they are.. They're the same people who raved over "What the Bleep!" and how that was supposed to change their lives bringing them wealth and such. And the same people that attend expensive motivational seminars every few months to somehow unlock something in themselves to radically change their lives. And the same people who go to the small business convention to look at pay phone businesses or pop machine businesses, hoping that an ill advised decision made on the show room floor will make them an overnight success.

They all seem to have a similar motivation.. I want to call it "get rich quick" but I don't think that is really accurate. Maybe "get more success quickly without having to have a plan or be focused"?
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Old 04-09-2007, 05:47 PM   #51
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The Law of Attraction: Thoughts become facts.

I'm a poker player, so if I'm sitting on fourth street with a flush draw, and a guy bets big into me, do I think of my spade hitting, my spade hitting, my spade thinking and call his bet?

Do my thoughts physically put a spade as the second card in the deck?

Does this sound ridiculous?

It can be said, categorically, that anybody who believes this stuff is a moron.
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Old 04-09-2007, 06:51 PM   #52
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I watched the trailer and I gotta say, if you are gonna fall for that line of gibberish and fake history maybe you deserve to lose your money.

It doesn't even make sense.
I have a friend who bought the book. The thing is... gullible people don't know how stupid they are, and they get so upset when you tell them that.
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Old 04-09-2007, 07:28 PM   #53
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You mean this whole visualizing thing is a hoax? Maybe that's why no matter how hard I try to visualize a planet inhabited by people who engage in sustainable enivonmental husbandry, they just keep on raping and burning the planet in prodigious fashion. Maybe that's why my vision of a planet where all human inhabitants pooled their talents and resources and used them toward the betterment of mankind, rather than engaging in high tech ballistic pisssing matches, just never seems to materialize. Could also be why my vision of a planet full of people who don't give a royal tweet what religion you practise, if any, or what nationality you are, just never seems to come into focus. That leads me to the unfortunate conclusion that you can't just "wish" for things ... you have to work for them. Well doesn't that just suck!
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Old 04-09-2007, 08:00 PM   #54
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Good post Burninator. People I talk to about it quickly fall back to the Idea 1 when I challenge them about Idea 2, though they don't seem to actually reconsider their beliefs about it.
Same thing happens for me. I get a lot of "oh well what I think they meant was..." or "what they really mean is..." People are very quick to defend the book/movie as if they understand what the author or editor was trying to get at better than the author or editor themselves.

But this is a merely a fad that will die away just as fast as it came along.
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Old 04-09-2007, 08:19 PM   #55
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Seems goofy to me. Just a big scheme to get people excited and spilling their dimes.

Positve thinking=good... no kidding
the rest seems needless
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:29 PM   #56
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Good post Burninator. I used to believe along the lines of what the Secret is preaching. The ideas were pretty popular in the 60's but the school of hard knocks, made me grow up a little and realize that just because I'm positive doesn't mean that I'm going to be showered with blessings. I still believe that I've been given a lot of my better wishes but it's never worked for a poker hand or a horserace.

Instead of wishing for all these material things that we hope will give us contentment, though it is good to be healthy and wealthy, the wise man may cut to the chase and just ask for contentment.
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:48 PM   #57
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I think being positive IS a very key part of life. It helps one keep balanced, keeps one from giving up, etc. Focus is very powerful.

And that's probably what's given you your better wishes, if you were negative if you fail then you quit, or if you aren't focused then you get distracted by other things and don't get as far.

But to elevate that to a galactic law is silly. To suggest that people starving in impoverished nations do so because they think negative food thoughts... What about children killed in war? They thought too much about being bombed?
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:30 AM   #58
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OK, so let's all do a concerted effort of thinking the Flames will win the cup this year!
5000+ people all asking the universe for one happy thought should be enough, right? Right????
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:58 AM   #59
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I think that some of you are taking this far too literally; the point here is not only to think positive and everything falls into your lap. Take the case of the writer in the movie...he still had to do all of the work to get his book deal; he still had to come up with the idea, write the book and make the connections to get there.
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:22 AM   #60
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I think that some of you are taking this far too literally; the point here is not only to think positive and everything falls into your lap. Take the case of the writer in the movie...he still had to do all of the work to get his book deal; he still had to come up with the idea, write the book and make the connections to get there.
Not sure if you read my lengthy post or not but I felt there were people saying that in the movie, that things would just fall into your lap. Mostly the metaphysicts and the philosophers. The author of the chicken soup was more on the reasonable side, saying that action was required to go along with your positive thinking. I just thought he was selling him self short by saying that positive thinking did it for him, when really all the hard work is what got him that money. Positive thinking may have got it started for him, but the hard work kept it going. The way he presented his actions in the movie painted a picture that didn't put much emphasis on his hard work.

Positive thinking is of course good. But this movie takes it to a new level that is totally unnecessary and far fetched. But if someone can look at it critically and derive some good from it, then that is no problem. But if you think you are going to eliminate your cancer from positive thinking and good eating I suggest you starting writing your will.
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