US federal "vaccine court" rejects Autism claims

[Bagor]

Why should I believe a Micropaleontologist's opinion on this matter (Dr Scheibner)?

Why, if she's so sure of this hasn't she conducted and published research to support her case in a peer review medical journal ?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Exactly! Finally someone is telling it like it is.

Vaccines are one of the biggest conspiracies perpetrated by the medical-industrial complex, and most world goverments are either turning a blind eye or actively assisting the process. And is anyone really surprised by this? How can we trust anything the medical industry has to say? The reason we don't have a cure for diseases like cancer and AIDS is because it's much more profitable to treat the symptoms over many years than it is to permenantly cure the patient.

This is ignorant, and insulting to the thousands of scientists who work every day on a cure.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Tower

But don't ask questions, and just listen to your doctor, because he/she knows best.

Who said anything about not asking questions?

That being said, if I believed my doctor didn't know what caused polio, I probably wouldn't bother asking him anything. I'd get a new doctor.

I know what causes polio. I don't know how I know it (I suspect I read it in a book, or maybe saw it on the television). My confident guess is that doctors in Canada would know a little more than me about all this here medical stuff.

[Tower]

Originally Posted by troutman

This is ignorant, and insulting to the thousands of scientists who work every day on a cure.

Work on a cure for???????????? Profit? That is insulting to everyone.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Tower

Work on a cure for???????????? Profit? That is insulting to everyone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_research_scientist

Biomedical scientists are employed by federal and stategovernments, are consultants for chemical and pharmaceuticalbusiness firms, or work in laboratories where they perform tests and experiment.[3][2] In the United States, the averagesalary for research scientists is $66,393.[citation needed] In the United Kingdom, they are paid anywhere from £20,000 to £40,000, depending on experience, education, and position.[1]

[photon]

But troutman, all those research scientists totally lie about what they are trying to do all the time don't you know.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by troutman

Science knows best.

Even science is biased though, on both sides.

To say that the CDC does not have an interest in denying a small side effect of a vaccine would be clearly false. They have a mandate to eradicate disease, and if they said that the vaccine was even a little bit unsafe, it would cause huge numbers of children to go unvaccinated and it could potentially wipe out half a generation of kids.

For a minute, assume vaccines cause autism in a small, small % of kids, the CDC would rather have that then 100million dead kids. I am not saying those numbers are correct since I have no idea what the end result would be but my point is the vaccine is best for society as a whole, and the CDC is doing what it thinks is best for society by promoting and encouraging research that supports that position.

This is the same logic that assumes that Wakefield's findings were not relevant because he was financially supported by the anti-vaccine people. You don't pay for a study that puts you out of business.

Point is, assuming one is 100% correct and the other is 100% wrong based on science is putting far more trust in the people writting that report than I am willing to do. A report can be written several different ways with the same data, just need to spin it right.

Just so it is clear, I am in support of immunization since the benefits outweigh the risks.

[troutman]

^^^^

Science is self-correcting.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Tower

Sounds like sanitary issues.

Ask your doctor how one gets Polio. Bet you he doesn't know.

The decrease of disease is due to proper sanitation.

This is really a headscratcher.

Do you think the vaccine had anything to do with the disease being effectively eradicated in the western hemisphere?

Did everyone get "proper sanitation" right after the vaccine was developed? Like a coincidence?

[Tower]

Originally Posted by troutman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_research_scientist

Biomedical scientists are employed by federal and stategovernments, are consultants for chemical and pharmaceuticalbusiness firms, or work in laboratories where they perform tests and experiment.[3][2] In the United States, the averagesalary for research scientists is $66,393.[citation needed] In the United Kingdom, they are paid anywhere from £20,000 to £40,000, depending on experience, education, and position.[1]

http://www.actupny.org/reports/durban-licensing.html

Profit

The workers bees may be working as they believe in something greater. But the Queen certainly makes a killing.

[photon]

A report can be spun, but a research paper cannot.. if it is spun it will be rejected during peer review. And there's more research than simply what the CDC pays for, science is about disproving things.

This is the thing about science.. the risks of the vaccine are known, they keep track of how many kids have reactions to it, medical professionals are required to report these things.

Read the details of a vaccine, it will tell you what percentage of people experienced what side effects under what conditions.

Every time I take my kid to get vaccinated they explicitly tell me the potential side effects, even the really nasty ones.

Does that stop me? Of course not, if I vaccinate my kid still has hundreds of thousands of times more chance of dying in a car accident on the way home than from being seriously harmed by the vaccine. On the other hand if I don't vaccinate, he has a much much higher chance of dying because I didn't vaccinate.

[Rathji]

nm

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by photon

A report can be spun, but a research paper cannot.. if it is spun it will be rejected during peer review. And there's more research than simply what the CDC pays for, science is about disproving things.

Correct, but you cannot find what you are are not looking for.

The point of what I was saying is that I could see, and I would totally agree with, them not wanting to find out if this was the case, since it is better for society as a whole if they don't.

I am not convinced it happening like that, by any stretch of the imagination, but I can see the logic behind it happening.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Tower

http://www.actupny.org/reports/durban-licensing.html

Profit

The workers bees may be working as they believe in something greater. But the Queen certainly makes a killing.

Obviously you think that proves something. What exactly is it?

That site lists the 10 highest paid blokes in the business. "The Queen", as you would have it.

I'm sure most of those guys have children and grandchildren. If someone were to study that group of people (the children and grandchildren of the CEO's) and determine what percentage of them had been vaccinated, my very conservative estimate is that the number would be somewhere between 100% and 100%. Where do you think the number would be?

[Tower]

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...88AB5AD9CB751C

[photon]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Correct, but you cannot find what you are are not looking for.

The point of what I was saying is that I could see, and I would totally agree with, them not wanting to find out if this was the case, since it is better for society as a whole if they don't.

I am not convinced it happening like that, by any stretch of the imagination, but I can see the logic behind it happening.

Sure it might be logical, but it would also be completely against how science operates.. science is transparent, and if one group doesn't want to do the research to show something, another group will.

Imagine if you could demonstrate that vaccine A was harmful, your vaccine B would be an instant goldmine.

[MelBridgeman]

Doesn't autism predate vaccinations?

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Correct, but you cannot find what you are are not looking for.

The point of what I was saying is that I could see, and I would totally agree with, them not wanting to find out if this was the case, since it is better for society as a whole if they don't.

I am not convinced it happening like that, by any stretch of the imagination, but I can see the logic behind it happening.

But the results would reveal themselves. You don't need to go far back to see lucrative medicines that were pulled off shelves (and class action lawsuits). Vioxx is the one that springs to mind.

Merck has reserved $970 million to pay for its Vioxx-related legal expenses through 2007, and have set aside $4.85bn for legal claims from US citizens.

Can you imagine how much money would be involved if any of these early childhood immunizations were proven to be dangerous? There will always be side effects to any drug; but dangerous to the point that the immunization critics claim would ruin any company.

And that is the point of the OP.
The "Vaccine court" has a lower requirement than a full legal tribunal, and even with this "lowered bar" the correlation between the MMR vaccine and autism couldn't be proved. The "Wakefield controversy" occurred because a study was actually largely funded by lawyers looking for evidence they wanted to be able to sue. The wikipedia article list 23 followup studies, none of which found any correlation between immunizations and autism.

And yet there are chiropractors advising against immunizations (and why the heck would they be involved in that?), people like Jenny McCarthy using their fame to spread misinformation, and so on.

There are mountains of evidence that immunizations are beneficial to society. Evidence that when immunizations stop, the root diseases return. And yet still people are more fearful of the chance of an immunization side effect that they are of the disease.

I can understand people wanting to protect their children and fearing the side effects, but if that is your justification then you had better just put your kid in a bubble right now.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Tower

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...88AB5AD9CB751C

The guy is wearing a ski mask. Is there anything I can, you know, not laugh at right away?

[looooob]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

How can we trust anything the medical industry has to say? The reason we don't have a cure for diseases like cancer and AIDS is because it's much more profitable to treat the symptoms over many years than it is to permenantly cure the patient.

even if I take a very cynical stance...while I'm sure there are doctors, scientists (and of course companies) that want to make profit, I'm sure at least some of them also don't want to die-or have their loved ones-die of cancer (or HIV or whatnot). In fact I would imagine even a fraction of them are more worried about dying of cancer than becoming trillionaires...do you really think that they aren't trying to find a cure for cancer even for that self-centered reason alone, if not for more noble reasons?