Flames 2013 Draft Discussion

[moon]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

If Modin for a 7th is a bad move then Comeau for a 5th is a good one.

I think they are both nothing moves. Neither good nor bad.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Still a good trade if we can flip Cammy for a 1st at the deadline. We dumped Bourque who would be toxic on our young team and likely a buyout candidate. It is not the slam dunk win I used to think it was though

Bourque isn't close to a buyout candidate.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by moon

I think they are both nothing moves. Neither good nor bad.

On that point I agree

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by moon

The moves may not have done much damage but the lack of moves and holding on to guys for way too long certainly has done a lot of damage. Also the two big misses that were only misses because of others and not them would have done damage to this team and that is hard to ignore.

The holding on to guys for too long can be pinned more on ownership than management I think. However, if you are going to criticize them for that you have to also pay credit to the fact that this regime finally did something that the past one refused to do - which is move on from Iginla.

Seems to me that when it comes to identifying the bad moves, some people have a very broad definition of what to include, including moves that weren't even made, but when looking at the good stuff, they tend to be more restrictive.

I mean if were are going to slam the management for "almost" signing Richards should we not also give them credit for trying to sign a guy like Damien Brunner? Or Dan Dekeyser? I mean they look great in Detroit so I guess Feaster should get credit since he liked those guys?

[puds]

Why isn't Borque close to a buyout candidate?

Terrible contract, 21 points in 65 games since being traded to montreal, and -17 over that same stretch. He's signed until 2016. The only reason he wouldn't be a buyout candidate without looking is because he's probably on the LTIR.

[moon]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The holding on to guys for too long can be pinned more on ownership than management I think. However, if you are going to criticize them for that you have to also pay credit to the fact that this regime finally did something that the past one refused to do - which is move on from Iginla.

Seems to me that when it comes to identifying the bad moves, some people have a very broad definition of what to include, including moves that weren't even made, but when looking at the good stuff, they tend to be more restrictive.

I mean if were are going to slam the management for "almost" signing Richards should we not also give them credit for trying to sign a guy like Damien Brunner? Or Dan Dekeyser? I mean they look great in Detroit so I guess Feaster should get credit since he liked those guys?

I don't buy the ownership thing since Feaster has said so many times he agreed with that philosophy.

I guess they get some credit for Brunner (though didn't hear much about them trying to get him) and Dekeyser, but since 25 teams (or something close) made pitches too him I am not sure it shows all that much hockey knowledge.

[moon]

Originally Posted by puds

Why isn't Borque close to a buyout candidate?

Terrible contract, 21 points in 65 games since being traded to montreal, and -17 over that same stretch. He's signed until 2016. The only reason he wouldn't be a buyout candidate without looking is because he's probably on the LTIR.

Because his contract isn't that bad, he can contribute to the team and Montreal isn't in bad enough cap situation to need to waste a buyout on a guy like Bourque.

He shouldn't be close to a buyout candidate LTIR or not.

[Flash Walken]

Sorry Jiri, but I can't give the team credit for finally trading Iginla, they didn't have a choice.

He forced the trade. They could have let him walk for nothing, but that's not a defense, nor is it an opportunity to score points either. Iginla forced a trade and they traded him instead of watching him walk away for nothing. E for Effort?

That's not a feather in their cap. If anything, it's a feather in Iginlas for finally moving on. The way it went down is certainly a point against management. Not getting his 4 teams in writing? If that's the standard operating procedure, which it is for a no-trade, how much credit do you get for screwing yourself out of a better return because you didn't get his teams in writing?

As for the moves that didn't happen: the desire to make those moves is as indictable as actually making them. The reason the Richards thing is a knock against the team is because despite offering the most money, the Flames dodged a bullet. In Calgary, Richards is likely even worse than he was in New York, with a higher cap hit.

The same is true for Ryan O'Reilly. No competent management team with an achievable goal and a plan throws away a top 5 draft pick for the opportunity to pay a 21 year old guy more than 6 million dollars a year. There is no way to square that one, offersheet fiasco or not. The intention was horrid and if not for luck, would have been a disaster.

They are legitimate criticisms because they are so backwards; so against the grain, so obviously wrong.

Feaster and Co. turned vinegar into wine with the Erixon thing. The majority of the rest the moves have been puzzling, stupid or hairbrained.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Yeah those are good examples. I was one of those giving Johnsson some lovin'. He looked great at the dev camp.

Flames also had some bad luck
- Chuck concussions
- Pelech ongoing serious injuries during key development years
- Dan Ryder being a loon
- death of Mickey Renaud

I don't really buy those excuses at all beyond the death of Renaud obviously. Every team has guys that don't make because of concussions. Pelech was injured going into the draft so the Flames knew he was a risk. Ryder was taken so low in the draft because he was unstable.

Not really bad luck, more like unnecessary risk taking.

[dammage79]

Moral of the story in regards to the "Dodged Bullets" according to two or three posters. Don't try. Because no other team was trying to get these players either. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[moon]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Moral of the story in regards to the "Dodged Bullets" according to two or three posters. Don't try. Because no other team was trying to get these players either.

Not sure if I am one of those posters but I would say the moral of the story is don't overpay and/or give away young assets when your team is a long ways away from contending and adding those guys aren't going to make a difference in terms of competing for the Cup or not and likely still have you as a non-play-off team anyways.

Adding Richards or O'Reilly doesn't make this team close to a contender now or in the next 5 years and in their own way hurt the team long term. The financial handcuffs that they would put the team in would hurt it when it actually could use that money in 3-4 years when they (hopefully will have guys worth spending it on.) The picks given up for O'Reilly would help to handicap the needed cheap players needed when you are overpaying a 2nd line center by as much as we would have on the O'Reilly deal.

Feel free to try all you want just don't make stupid decisions and try for guys that don't make sense at where your team is.

[Flash Walken]

Informal Poll: What is more desirable right now?

Barkov/Monahan/Lindholm, a third round pick and 5 million in cap space

OR

Ryan O'Reilly

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by moon

Not sure if I am one of those posters but I would say the moral of the story is don't overpay and/or give away young assets when your team is a long ways away from contending and adding those guys aren't going to make a difference in terms of competing for the Cup or not and likely still have you as a non-play-off team anyways.

Adding Richards or O'Reilly doesn't make this team close to a contender now or in the next 5 years and in their own way hurt the team long term. The financial handcuffs that they would put the team in would hurt it when it actually could use that money in 3-4 years when they (hopefully will have guys worth spending it on.) The picks given up for O'Reilly would help to handicap the needed cheap players needed when you are overpaying a 2nd line center by as much as we would have on the O'Reilly deal.

Feel free to try all you want just don't make stupid decisions and try for guys that don't make sense at where your team is.

I am surprised as adding Richards would have negated the signing of your most hated player Dennis Wideman, I actually thought you would have loved having Richards over Wideman. Everything teams do is a gamble and if you want to land the big fish in the FA pool you have to pay. I disagree with O'Reilly, as young as he is he would be a key component in any way the team chose to build going forward. Hindsight now asks was he worth a Monahan/Lindholm and a third? I wouldn't say so but at least they made the attempt to get Iggy to the playoffs one more time.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Moral of the story in regards to the "Dodged Bullets" according to two or three posters. Don't try. Because no other team was trying to get these players either. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Moral of the story is try, but don't go stupid and cripple your team in your attempt to try. Trying to get Richards wasn't the problem, the problem was the crazy length of the term that would have helped our cap when we were not a contending team and seriously hurt our cap room when we needed it later. Stupid. Trying to get ROR wasn't the problem, the problem was a a mix of giving up draft picks, locking into a contract where the QO would hurt us in a few years when we need the cap room (but help us now when we don't need it), and the laziness / lack of due diligence on the ROR of not taking 5 minutes to call the league and clearify the rules, and would rather spend countless hours and dollars to take it to court instead.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Informal Poll: What is more desirable right now?

Barkov/Monahan/Lindholm, a third round pick and 5 million in cap space

OR

Ryan O'Reilly

Depends, if picking up ROR had resulted in us moving up the standings and securing a playoff spot and not trading away Iginla and Bouwmeester then I would rather we had gotten ROR. Of course at that point our draft pick would have been in the twenties instead of 6 and it would not have been nearly so valuable.

Since we didn't get ROR and the rebuild started, I am glad we kept our draft pick (and acquired more).

Either way what you are proposing is a pretty narrow view of the situation and not really a relevant tangent to take this draft discussion.

[moon]

Originally Posted by dammage79

I am surprised as adding Richards would have negated the signing of your most hated player Dennis Wideman, I actually thought you would have loved having Richards over Wideman. Everything teams do is a gamble and if you want to land the big fish in the FA pool you have to pay. I disagree with O'Reilly, as young as he is he would be a key component in any way the team chose to build going forward. Hindsight now asks was he worth a Monahan/Lindholm and a third? I wouldn't say so but at least they made the attempt to get Iggy to the playoffs one more time.

I would rather have neither guy and the team make smart signings. Not sure I want the team avoiding one bad signing because they did another.

I don't want the 2012/13 Flames to land the big fish so I don't have to want them to pay. Getting the big fish in the FA pond doesn't seem to be the best way to build a team especially when that team is as bad as the Flames.

I wish they had tried to not get Iggy into the play-offs a few less times and built this team up with more assets, not sure trying to get Iggy into the play-offs one more time is a positive.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by moon

I would rather have neither guy and the team make smart signings. Not sure I want the team avoiding one bad signing because they did another.

I don't want the 2012/13 Flames to land the big fish so I don't have to want them to pay. Getting the big fish in the FA pond doesn't seem to be the best way to build a team especially when that team is as bad as the Flames.

I wish they had tried to not get Iggy into the play-offs a few less times and built this team up with more assets, not sure trying to get Iggy into the play-offs one more time is a positive.

It was their mandate. Not sure how they could have gone in a different direction if Murray and company wanted to try and get into the playoffs.

The Mandate has changed now and we can all focus on this important draft and not the overspending of Free agents.

Let's get back to bickering about who is better, Monahan, Lindholm or Barkov.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Ok sure so break it down then. Have they really been wrong over half the time? Easy to say they have been but I don't know if that's true.

Though they need to be right more than half of the time anyways. 50% isn't really good enough.

What are you talking about? Who cares about 100% or 50% or more than 50%. The point is.....are the right guys at the helm of this team? Are they doing a decent job relative to other management teams out there? No. It's an opinion, but it is pretty apparent that mngt has to improve quickly or this isn't going to get better.

We are out of the playoffs again and future isn't bright, so what else do you think people are going to talk about on your chat board? Who should wear the C? Jersey colours? Come on.

[ignite09]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

What are you talking about? Who cares about 100% or 50% or more than 50%. The point is.....are the right guys at the helm of this team? Are they doing a decent job relative to other management teams out there? No. It's an opinion, but it is pretty apparent that mngt has to improve quickly or this isn't going to get better.

We are out of the playoffs again and future isn't bright, so what else do you think people are going to talk about on your chat board? Who should wear the C? Jersey colours? Come on.

Relax, he's allowed to have an opinion. As far as mngt goes, I still feel ownership gave Feaster running orders to get Iggys Flames into the playoffs. He didn't get it done, and it was a bad idea from the start. However, now that they aren't heading down that road anymore some feel the group in charge should be given a chance to turn this around.

[ignite09]

Too keep this draft oriented, who is it that most feel shouldn't be at the table on draft day? Is this a Feaster problem or are some of you asking for a "scorched earth" approach to getting rid of the scouting staff?