Flames 2013 Draft Discussion

[Commandant]

On Nichushkin, the write up on his combine on the NHL draft blog (written by CBJ scouts) was glowing.

Now Gare Joyce (a good writer who has connections to scouts) is saying his scouting world sources are saying his interviews sucked, etc... etc...


One thing to remember, the closer we get to the draft, the bigger the poker game becomes, especially with leaks like these two. Its all a giant poker game right now, so take anything said to be coming from an NHL "source" with a grain of salt IMO.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think people are justifiably suspect of the talent evaluation abilities of this organization. Ryan O'Reilly was a franchise center, Every goalie we acquire being the best goalie outside of NA, Cervenka being a center, Babchuk possibly scoring 50 points for us. They're not exactly hitting any home runs here. Skepticism is the view of experience here.

Some of those remain to be seen. O'Reilly could end up being a great centre - he's still young and his early career performance suggest he's a gooder.
The goalies are also unknowns at this point.
Honestly how many times are we going to have to hear about Babchuk and Cervenka?

People are more than welcome to not trust the management - it is well deserved but dear lord hearing the same stuff trotted out over and over again is making the conversations stale.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Some of those remain to be seen. O'Reilly could end up being a great centre - he's still young and his early career performance suggest he's a gooder.
The goalies are also unknowns at this point.
Honestly how many times are we going to have to hear about Babchuk and Cervenka?

People are more than welcome to not trust the management - it is well deserved but dear lord hearing the same stuff trotted out over and over again is making the conversations stale.

Agreed on Cervenka and the goalies. These are the types of low-risk, potential high reward moves I want to see, even if the high reward has a low probability. It's not like Cervenka was given a flyer in lieu of acquiring Malkin or something.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Agreed on Cervenka and the goalies. These are the types of low-risk, potential high reward moves I want to see, even if the high reward has a low probability. It's not like Cervenka was given a flyer in lieu of acquiring Malkin or something.

I think the main thing about Cervenka is that there was confusion over the position he played. Sounds like a lot of the confusion came from that fact that in some leagues offensive guys play centre in that zone, and then LW in the defensive zone.

So yeah that should have been caught by the scouts. But really who cares? Would that have prevented them from bringing him over to see if his offensive skills could translate? Probably not.

So hearing it brought up endlessly seems like over-reaction.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Honestly how many times are we going to have to hear about Babchuk and Cervenka?

Discussion of failure is eliminated by achieving success.

I was totally for the Cervenka signing and was even willing to keep him. But the guy wasn't a center. There are good reasons why the talent evaluation should be a concern going forward.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by nik-

Discussion of failure is eliminated by achieving success.

I was totally for the Cervenka signing and was even willing to keep him. But the guy wasn't a center. There are good reasons why the talent evaluation should be a concern going forward.

No team is 100% correct 100% of the time.

[djsFlames]

Cervenka was definitely low risk.

Small price tag, small chance for something really good. It was a savvy move, whether it worked out or not. And another team would have scooped him up right away if we hadn't.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I think the main thing about Cervenka is that there was confusion over the position he played. Sounds like a lot of the confusion came from that fact that in some leagues offensive guys play centre in that zone, and then LW in the defensive zone.

So yeah that should have been caught by the scouts. But really who cares? Would that have prevented them from bringing him over to see if his offensive skills could translate? Probably not.

So hearing it brought up endlessly seems like over-reaction.

I definitely think we should be scouting Europe with more effort (particularly central and eastern Europe). It seems to me just based on impressions I get from anecdotal evidence that Europe is still the best place to find obscure dark horses in any given draft.

I think the failure to properly scout Cervenka is a symptom of a larger problem with the past philosophy of this franchise.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

No team is 100% correct 100% of the time.

I'd be happy with 50/50 at this point.

[Miniac]

Originally Posted by Commandant

On Nichushkin, the write up on his combine on the NHL draft blog (written by CBJ scouts) was glowing.

Now Gare Joyce (a good writer who has connections to scouts) is saying his scouting world sources are saying his interviews sucked, etc... etc...


One thing to remember, the closer we get to the draft, the bigger the poker game becomes, especially with leaks like these two. Its all a giant poker game right now, so take anything said to be coming from an NHL "source" with a grain of salt IMO.

I won't be surprised if we draft Nichushkin.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Commandant

On Nichushkin, the write up on his combine on the NHL draft blog (written by CBJ scouts) was glowing.

Now Gare Joyce (a good writer who has connections to scouts) is saying his scouting world sources are saying his interviews sucked, etc... etc...


One thing to remember, the closer we get to the draft, the bigger the poker game becomes, especially with leaks like these two. Its all a giant poker game right now, so take anything said to be coming from an NHL "source" with a grain of salt IMO.

My flaw with your argument is what poker game is in the interview process? If Columbus says he was a great interview what does that matter to the Flames of they thought he did a terrible interview with them? By most accounts the kid didn't fare well at the combine. It remains to be seen how this will affect where he gets drafted but I expect he didn't do himself any favours.

[CliffFletcher]

It's too soon to judge Feaster and Weisbrod's drafting record. We won't really know how things are shaping up prospect-wise (good or bad) for 2-3 more years.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Doubt it. I'm guessing they are looking at Petan in the late first or early 2nd. Might be a possibility if we deal the PIT pick for two 2nds.

Some confusion here, I don't think anyone thinks we'll take Petan as our first pick. Later on, he seems to be targeted.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Miniac

I won't be surprised if we draft Nichushkin.

I would because it would contradict a lot of what Weisbrod has been talking about looking for high character in their prospects. I realize Feaster has made a habit of contradictin himself but I would be disappointed if the organization can't even stick to their scouting ideals.

[Commandant]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

My flaw with your argument is what poker game is in the interview process? If Columbus says he was a great interview what does that matter to the Flames of they thought he did a terrible interview with them? By most accounts the kid didn't fare well at the combine. It remains to be seen how this will affect where he gets drafted but I expect he didn't do himself any favours.

Its a poker game because Columbus appears more interested in the player than the actually are. Or the team saying he is crap appears less interested than they actually are.

If you are say Calgary at 6 and you know the guy you love is gonna be taken by the Canes at 5, maybe you trade up to 4 to get that guy... or maybe the Oilers figure out who calgary wants and trades up to 5 to get ahead of them.

Unless you are 1st overall, you never want to let the cat out of the bag as to who you want, because a team below you now knows how high they have to trade to get their guy.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Commandant

Its a poker game because Columbus appears more interested in the player than the actually are. Or the team saying he is crap appears less interested than they actually are.

If you are say Calgary at 6 and you know the guy you love is gonna be taken by the Canes at 5, maybe you trade up to 4 to get that guy... or maybe the Oilers figure out who calgary wants and trades up to 5 to get ahead of them.

Unless you are 1st overall, you never want to let the cat out of the bag as to who you want, because a team below you now knows how high they have to trade to get their guy.

It's not a particular team that said he interviewed poorly. It's ISS head scout Ross MacLean.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by nik-

I'd be happy with 50/50 at this point.

Ok sure so break it down then. Have they really been wrong over half the time? Easy to say they have been but I don't know if that's true.

Though they need to be right more than half of the time anyways. 50% isn't really good enough.

[Commandant]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's not a particular team that said he interviewed poorly. It's ISS head scout Ross MacLean.

Ross MacLean isn't in the interviews. I would bet its the same leak who was giving this to Gare Joyce yesterday.

https://twitter.com/GareJoyceNHL/sta...82006983380993

[nik-]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Ok sure so break it down then. Have they really been wrong over half the time? Easy to say they have been but I don't know if that's true.

Though they need to be right more than half of the time anyways. 50% isn't really good enough.

Wideman: average now, going to be bad by the end of that contract.
Babchuk: bad
Regehr trade: not good, and yes I consider the 2nd/Kotalik as all part of this trade
Erixon trade: Good to great considering the circumstances
Trying to sign Comeau for two years: horrible
Modin: bad, but it was a 7th
McGratton: made some fans happy, did nothing to the performance - neutral
Tanguay Signing: horrible term, clear from the beginning.
Glencross contract: great
Cervenka: fine, bringing him over for the wrong position is concerning

Left out the huge deals of J-Bo and Iginla because we need to see what we gather from them. The picks are good, Cundari looked not bad, Hanowski looked about 100 miles from an NHL'er.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by nik-

Wideman: average now, going to be bad by the end of that contract.
Babchuk: bad
Regehr trade: not good, and yes I consider the 2nd/Kotalik as all part of this trade
Erixon trade: Good to great considering the circumstances
Trying to sign Comeau for two years: horrible
Modin: bad, but it was a 7th
McGratton: made some fans happy, did nothing to the performance - neutral
Tanguay Signing: horrible term, clear from the beginning.
Glencross contract: great
Cervenka: fine, bringing him over for the wrong position is concerning

Left out the huge deals of J-Bo and Iginla because we need to see what we gather from them. The picks are good, Cundari looked not bad, Hanowski looked about 100 miles from an NHL'er.

I think the Erixon trade has to be considered great considering the circumstances. Turning him into Horak, Wotherspoon, and Granlund I think was a home run. This is one of the things that makes me think he can GM.

Regarding Bou and Iginla I think time will tell for sure, but trading bou and taking no salary back was pretty big. Adding the 22nd pick, Cundari and Berra is looking like a good return. The Iginla trade is what it is because there was only one team so I don't fault him on that at all. I think many preferred the Boston trade but it is what it is. I don't think Hanowski will be an every day NHLer and I don't know what to think about Agostino, so it boils down to the 28th pick.

When ever I think of the return for Iginla I remind myself that Wayne Gretzky was traded to STL at the same age and the return was similar.