06-08-2013, 11:53 PM
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#5261
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Original FFIV
Go back and look at the 2004 draft and look past round 3 - lots of good nhl careers and none of them with the Flames. Much better players than Boyd were taken after he was selected.
Phaneuf was a great pick as a physical specimen and skill but lousy on character and hockey sense. Therebis a mystique about him that results kn him being rated as one of the most overrated players in the league. Thankfully the team looked at hockey sense and character later in Sutter's tenure and continues to this day.
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Actually, Phaneuf was a very good pick. Sutter obviously got the inside track on his personality - Brent loved Phaneuf, and played for him from what I remember.
When Phaneuf was a calder finalist, and was a Norris finalist 2 years later. I believe most redrafts had him at #2 - just behind Eric Staal, with some redrafts ranking him higher. I also ran across a stat that said Phaneuf was the 2nd highest all-time scoring defencemen entering the NHL for the first 2 (or was it 3?) years - second only to Paul Coffey.
I think a combination of too high of a re-signing and having Keenan who just didn't sit down with Phaneuf and force him to play some defence wrecked him (Warrener said as much on the Fan - apparently him and Regehr tried to teach him defence, and Phaneuf didn't care as long as he was producing offensively - they confronted Keenan and asked him to do something about Phaneuf, and he refused, instead kept giving Phaneuf loads of ice-time).
Phaneuf is now back to being a pretty good defencemen (great numbers - even defensively, though still makes the occasional embarrassing error) - even though I don't like to admit it. Re-rank him today, and he falls down that list considerably. I don't think you can fault Sutter directly for Phaneuf's regression (definitely indirectly for the Keenan hire maybe), but definitely is at fault for an abysmal return.
The 2nds - most 2nds he traded away paid off - especially the Kipper and Bourque trades. Definitely not all of them for sure. I still don't really fault him for trading away those seconds (drafting sucked anyways, which in my opinion makes those picks less valuable to the Flames than in what they acquired in return), but definitely Sutter SHOULD have turned the drafting department around quicker, and this is why the pipeline really suffered.
I think my original point was not that Sutter was great at drafting (adding up all the picks over the years and seeing the results justifies the 'poor drafting' sentiment quite easily) but rather Calgary's seemingly improved drafting started happening under his watch, and has continued through with Feaster (and I hope it continues to improve - as good as I think it has been, there is still a definite room for improvement).
I personally like the way Calgary's drafting has been trending, but I have liked it starting under the last couple of Sutter's drafts, and it has made me more optimistic about this rebuild than I would have been otherwise.
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06-09-2013, 01:27 AM
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#5262
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Acerbic Cyberbully
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: back in Chilliwack
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^
I think that is a very good assessment, and to add to it, Phaneuf was never the same after his injuries near the end of the 2007–08 season and in the playoffs that year. He was always a bit of an awkward skater, but he started to look slow in 2008.
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06-09-2013, 01:50 AM
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#5263
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
^
I think that is a very good assessment, and to add to it, Phaneuf was never the same after his injuries near the end of the 2007–08 season and in the playoffs that year. He was always a bit of an awkward skater, but he started to look slow in 2008.
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Yeah that hip injury seemed to destroy his stride.
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06-09-2013, 02:29 AM
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#5264
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Silicon Valley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef
Yeah that hip injury seemed to destroy his stride.
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Yup. To add to The Original FFIV's cluelessness, sadly, hockey sense was one of Phaneuf's strengths at the time of the draft.
__________________
"With a coach and a player, sometimes there's just so much respect there that it's boils over"
-Taylor Hall
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06-09-2013, 02:52 AM
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#5265
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Acerbic Cyberbully
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: back in Chilliwack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanuthier
...sadly, hockey sense was one of Phaneuf's strengths at the time of the draft.
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Is that for real?! If so, what on earth happened?
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06-09-2013, 04:03 AM
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#5266
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First Line Centre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
Is that for real?! If so, what on earth happened?
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Laziness, complacency and arrogance.
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06-09-2013, 09:03 AM
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#5268
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Original FFIV
...
Surrounding yourself with a bunch of yes men including your brother who shares your same vision is a classic example of groupthink and not the best way to develop a functional scouting staff, especially if you micromanage it to the extent that he did.
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No it's not. What you describe is not "groupthink" at all.
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06-09-2013, 09:04 AM
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#5269
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Franchise Player
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So the Flames made only one 2nd round pick since 2004. Anyone know which players were drafted with our picks? Anyone turn out to be big stars?
Also, any stars drafted a spot or two right after when our 2nd round would've been?
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06-09-2013, 09:25 AM
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#5270
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A Fiddler Crab
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago
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2005 - Edward Vlassic 35 (Pavelec - 41, Abdelkader - 42, Stastny - 44, Latendress - 45)
2006 - Codey Burki 59 (McBain - 63)
2007 - Trevor Cann 49 (Simmonds 61)
2009 - Brian Durmoulin 51 (Nobody of note)
2010 - Bradley Ross 43 (Tyler Toffoli 47)
2011- Brandon Saad 43 (Nobody of note)
2012 - Jake McCabe 44 (Nobody of note)
Missing out on Brandon Saad hurts, and we sure could have used one of those 2005 guys.
And it's not true we only had one second round pick. We've only had our second round pick once.
We had these other 2nd rounders.
2011- Markus Granlund 45 (From NYR), Tyler Wotherspoon 57 (From Washington)
2012 - Patrick Sieloff 42 (from Buffalo)
Last edited by driveway; 06-09-2013 at 09:31 AM.
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06-09-2013, 10:33 AM
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#5271
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First Line Centre
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Florida took Booth with Calgary's second in 2004.
We got Marcus Nillson.
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06-09-2013, 10:36 AM
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#5272
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertGQ
So the Flames made only one 2nd round pick since 2004. Anyone know which players were drafted with our picks? Anyone turn out to be big stars?
Also, any stars drafted a spot or two right after when our 2nd round would've been?
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4 Second round picks. We also got 2 back in the Erixon fiasco. And 1 for trading down to get janko
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06-09-2013, 10:55 AM
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#5273
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#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moon
The Western Canadian stuff is garbage.
The best Sutter Era pick (Phaneuf) was a Western Canadian, Dustin Boyd a western canadian was fine for a 3rd rounder, Matt Pelech was as big a bust as any from Ontario, Nemisz isn't looking like a stud from the OHL, Bouma looks okay for his pick from Western Canada, Ramholt over Webber great that he didn't go Western Canadian there. Of his 7 1st round picks only 3 from Western Canada.
People can rip Sutter all they want on his drafting but the Western Canadian thing is way overblown.
Tod Button hasn't really shown anything over his career to indicate that he should get a pass on the Sutter years and if Sutter was undermining him as head scout he should have quit.
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Between 2005 and 2009, no team in the entire NHL picked more players from the WHL than the Calgary Flames (13). The only other team that was close was MIN (11):
http://www.coppernblue.com/2010/6/8/...review-fishing
You can add another 4 WHLers from the 2010 draft (Darryl's last), which was 4 of the 6 picks the Flames had that year.
people can debate the effectiveness of that strategy, but there's no question the team concentrated their picks and scouting efforts in the Western Hockey League during Sutter's tenure.
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06-09-2013, 03:30 PM
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#5274
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Silicon Valley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
Is that for real?! If so, what on earth happened?
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Yup, sadly, the way he moved up the depth chart and above 20 y/o's Lynch/Woywitka, he was like Sergei Gonchar in the offensive zone at the WJC. Can't believe it all went into the crapper.
__________________
"With a coach and a player, sometimes there's just so much respect there that it's boils over"
-Taylor Hall
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06-09-2013, 04:42 PM
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#5275
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First Line Centre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
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Sleeper first-round candidate? This guy looks like the full package, though could stand to fill out a bit...
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06-10-2013, 07:02 AM
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#5277
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Lifetime Suspension
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant
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Going to College, two-way, seems to think the game well.
Definitely seems like a guy Feaster and company have been into lately.
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06-10-2013, 07:58 AM
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#5278
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzard
Florida took Booth with Calgary's second in 2004.
We got Marcus Nillson.
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Thats Really Win-Win
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06-10-2013, 08:37 AM
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#5279
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Franchise Player
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I'd still like to see Cammi to CBJ for one of their 1sts. Also Gio to Philly for their first.
Come away with :
C - Sean Monahan (6th)
RW - Hunter Shinkaruk (11th)
LW - Alex Wennberg (19th)
RW - Kerby Rychel (24th)
C - JT Compher (28th)
Add ton of skill up front.
Then draft D from 3rd round on.
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06-10-2013, 08:42 AM
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#5280
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#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by driveway
2005 - Edward Vlassic 35 (Pavelec - 41, Abdelkader - 42, Stastny - 44, Latendress - 45)
2006 - Codey Burki 59 (McBain - 63)
2007 - Trevor Cann 49 (Simmonds 61)
2009 - Brian Durmoulin 51 (Nobody of note)
2010 - Bradley Ross 43 (Tyler Toffoli 47)
2011- Brandon Saad 43 (Nobody of note)
2012 - Jake McCabe 44 (Nobody of note)
Missing out on Brandon Saad hurts, and we sure could have used one of those 2005 guys.
And it's not true we only had one second round pick. We've only had our second round pick once.
We had these other 2nd rounders.
2011- Markus Granlund 45 (From NYR), Tyler Wotherspoon 57 (From Washington)
2012 - Patrick Sieloff 42 (from Buffalo)
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Thanks for this. Impossible to say who the Flames would have drafted, had they stayed in that position, but it is safe to say that the odds of that pick playing meaningful minutes in the NHL is low. I like Vlasic, but am more than happy with the return of Kipper.
Having said that, it is painfully clear that the Flames need to re-stock in the worst way. The more picks the better to do just that.
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