Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Go Back   Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community > Main Forums > Fire on Ice: The Calgary Flames Forum
Register Forum Rules FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-08-2013, 11:53 PM   #5261
Calgary4LIfe
Franchise Player
 
Calgary4LIfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Original FFIV View Post
Go back and look at the 2004 draft and look past round 3 - lots of good nhl careers and none of them with the Flames. Much better players than Boyd were taken after he was selected.


Phaneuf was a great pick as a physical specimen and skill but lousy on character and hockey sense. Therebis a mystique about him that results kn him being rated as one of the most overrated players in the league. Thankfully the team looked at hockey sense and character later in Sutter's tenure and continues to this day.
Actually, Phaneuf was a very good pick. Sutter obviously got the inside track on his personality - Brent loved Phaneuf, and played for him from what I remember.

When Phaneuf was a calder finalist, and was a Norris finalist 2 years later. I believe most redrafts had him at #2 - just behind Eric Staal, with some redrafts ranking him higher. I also ran across a stat that said Phaneuf was the 2nd highest all-time scoring defencemen entering the NHL for the first 2 (or was it 3?) years - second only to Paul Coffey.

I think a combination of too high of a re-signing and having Keenan who just didn't sit down with Phaneuf and force him to play some defence wrecked him (Warrener said as much on the Fan - apparently him and Regehr tried to teach him defence, and Phaneuf didn't care as long as he was producing offensively - they confronted Keenan and asked him to do something about Phaneuf, and he refused, instead kept giving Phaneuf loads of ice-time).

Phaneuf is now back to being a pretty good defencemen (great numbers - even defensively, though still makes the occasional embarrassing error) - even though I don't like to admit it. Re-rank him today, and he falls down that list considerably. I don't think you can fault Sutter directly for Phaneuf's regression (definitely indirectly for the Keenan hire maybe), but definitely is at fault for an abysmal return.

The 2nds - most 2nds he traded away paid off - especially the Kipper and Bourque trades. Definitely not all of them for sure. I still don't really fault him for trading away those seconds (drafting sucked anyways, which in my opinion makes those picks less valuable to the Flames than in what they acquired in return), but definitely Sutter SHOULD have turned the drafting department around quicker, and this is why the pipeline really suffered.

I think my original point was not that Sutter was great at drafting (adding up all the picks over the years and seeing the results justifies the 'poor drafting' sentiment quite easily) but rather Calgary's seemingly improved drafting started happening under his watch, and has continued through with Feaster (and I hope it continues to improve - as good as I think it has been, there is still a definite room for improvement).

I personally like the way Calgary's drafting has been trending, but I have liked it starting under the last couple of Sutter's drafts, and it has made me more optimistic about this rebuild than I would have been otherwise.
Calgary4LIfe is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Calgary4LIfe For This Useful Post:
Old 06-09-2013, 01:27 AM   #5262
Textcritic
Acerbic Cyberbully
 
Textcritic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: back in Chilliwack
Exp:
Default

^
I think that is a very good assessment, and to add to it, Phaneuf was never the same after his injuries near the end of the 2007–08 season and in the playoffs that year. He was always a bit of an awkward skater, but he started to look slow in 2008.
__________________
Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls

Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
"The Lying Pen of Scribes" Ancient Manuscript Forgeries Project
Textcritic is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Textcritic For This Useful Post:
Old 06-09-2013, 01:50 AM   #5263
Alberta_Beef
Franchise Player
 
Alberta_Beef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic View Post
^
I think that is a very good assessment, and to add to it, Phaneuf was never the same after his injuries near the end of the 2007–08 season and in the playoffs that year. He was always a bit of an awkward skater, but he started to look slow in 2008.
Yeah that hip injury seemed to destroy his stride.
Alberta_Beef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2013, 02:29 AM   #5264
Phanuthier
Franchise Player
 
Phanuthier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Silicon Valley
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef View Post
Yeah that hip injury seemed to destroy his stride.
Yup. To add to The Original FFIV's cluelessness, sadly, hockey sense was one of Phaneuf's strengths at the time of the draft.
__________________
"With a coach and a player, sometimes there's just so much respect there that it's boils over"
-Taylor Hall
Phanuthier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2013, 02:52 AM   #5265
Textcritic
Acerbic Cyberbully
 
Textcritic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: back in Chilliwack
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanuthier View Post
...sadly, hockey sense was one of Phaneuf's strengths at the time of the draft.
Is that for real?! If so, what on earth happened?
__________________
Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls

Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
"The Lying Pen of Scribes" Ancient Manuscript Forgeries Project
Textcritic is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Textcritic For This Useful Post:
Old 06-09-2013, 04:03 AM   #5266
FlameZilla
First Line Centre
 
FlameZilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic View Post
Is that for real?! If so, what on earth happened?
Laziness, complacency and arrogance.
FlameZilla is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to FlameZilla For This Useful Post:
Old 06-09-2013, 08:35 AM   #5267
Commandant
Scoring Winger
 
Join Date: May 2012
Exp:
Default

Jimmy Lodge, from the Saginaw Spirit of the OHL, an American RW

http://lastwordonsports.com/2013/06/...er-profile-58/
__________________
Your 2018 NHL Draft Headquarters Now Open
http://lastwordonhockey.com/2018-nhl...-headquarters/

New article every day.
Commandant is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Commandant For This Useful Post:
Old 06-09-2013, 09:03 AM   #5268
the2bears
Franchise Player
 
the2bears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The Bay Area
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Original FFIV View Post
...

Surrounding yourself with a bunch of yes men including your brother who shares your same vision is a classic example of groupthink and not the best way to develop a functional scouting staff, especially if you micromanage it to the extent that he did.
No it's not. What you describe is not "groupthink" at all.
the2bears is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to the2bears For This Useful Post:
Old 06-09-2013, 09:04 AM   #5269
albertGQ
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Exp:
Default

So the Flames made only one 2nd round pick since 2004. Anyone know which players were drafted with our picks? Anyone turn out to be big stars?

Also, any stars drafted a spot or two right after when our 2nd round would've been?
albertGQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2013, 09:25 AM   #5270
driveway
A Fiddler Crab
 
driveway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago
Exp:
Default

2005 - Edward Vlassic 35 (Pavelec - 41, Abdelkader - 42, Stastny - 44, Latendress - 45)
2006 - Codey Burki 59 (McBain - 63)
2007 - Trevor Cann 49 (Simmonds 61)

2009 - Brian Durmoulin 51 (Nobody of note)
2010 - Bradley Ross 43 (Tyler Toffoli 47)
2011- Brandon Saad 43 (Nobody of note)
2012 - Jake McCabe 44 (Nobody of note)

Missing out on Brandon Saad hurts, and we sure could have used one of those 2005 guys.

And it's not true we only had one second round pick. We've only had our second round pick once.

We had these other 2nd rounders.
2011- Markus Granlund 45 (From NYR), Tyler Wotherspoon 57 (From Washington)
2012 - Patrick Sieloff 42 (from Buffalo)

Last edited by driveway; 06-09-2013 at 09:31 AM.
driveway is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to driveway For This Useful Post:
Old 06-09-2013, 10:33 AM   #5271
Buzzard
First Line Centre
 
Buzzard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

Florida took Booth with Calgary's second in 2004.

We got Marcus Nillson.
Buzzard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2013, 10:36 AM   #5272
Alberta_Beef
Franchise Player
 
Alberta_Beef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by albertGQ View Post
So the Flames made only one 2nd round pick since 2004. Anyone know which players were drafted with our picks? Anyone turn out to be big stars?

Also, any stars drafted a spot or two right after when our 2nd round would've been?
4 Second round picks. We also got 2 back in the Erixon fiasco. And 1 for trading down to get janko
Alberta_Beef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2013, 10:55 AM   #5273
Metro Gnome
#1 Goaltender
 
Metro Gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moon View Post
The Western Canadian stuff is garbage.

The best Sutter Era pick (Phaneuf) was a Western Canadian, Dustin Boyd a western canadian was fine for a 3rd rounder, Matt Pelech was as big a bust as any from Ontario, Nemisz isn't looking like a stud from the OHL, Bouma looks okay for his pick from Western Canada, Ramholt over Webber great that he didn't go Western Canadian there. Of his 7 1st round picks only 3 from Western Canada.

People can rip Sutter all they want on his drafting but the Western Canadian thing is way overblown.

Tod Button hasn't really shown anything over his career to indicate that he should get a pass on the Sutter years and if Sutter was undermining him as head scout he should have quit.
Between 2005 and 2009, no team in the entire NHL picked more players from the WHL than the Calgary Flames (13). The only other team that was close was MIN (11):

http://www.coppernblue.com/2010/6/8/...review-fishing

You can add another 4 WHLers from the 2010 draft (Darryl's last), which was 4 of the 6 picks the Flames had that year.

people can debate the effectiveness of that strategy, but there's no question the team concentrated their picks and scouting efforts in the Western Hockey League during Sutter's tenure.
Metro Gnome is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Metro Gnome For This Useful Post:
Old 06-09-2013, 03:30 PM   #5274
Phanuthier
Franchise Player
 
Phanuthier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Silicon Valley
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic View Post
Is that for real?! If so, what on earth happened?
Yup, sadly, the way he moved up the depth chart and above 20 y/o's Lynch/Woywitka, he was like Sergei Gonchar in the offensive zone at the WJC. Can't believe it all went into the crapper.
__________________
"With a coach and a player, sometimes there's just so much respect there that it's boils over"
-Taylor Hall
Phanuthier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2013, 04:42 PM   #5275
FlameZilla
First Line Centre
 
FlameZilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Jimmy Lodge, from the Saginaw Spirit of the OHL, an American RW

http://lastwordonsports.com/2013/06/...er-profile-58/
Sleeper first-round candidate? This guy looks like the full package, though could stand to fill out a bit...
FlameZilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2013, 06:44 AM   #5276
Commandant
Scoring Winger
 
Join Date: May 2012
Exp:
Default

Tommy Vannelli, a two way, American D.

http://lastwordonsports.com/2013/06/...er-profile-59/
__________________
Your 2018 NHL Draft Headquarters Now Open
http://lastwordonhockey.com/2018-nhl...-headquarters/

New article every day.
Commandant is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Commandant For This Useful Post:
Old 06-10-2013, 07:02 AM   #5277
MrMastodonFarm
Lifetime Suspension
 
MrMastodonFarm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Tommy Vannelli, a two way, American D.

http://lastwordonsports.com/2013/06/...er-profile-59/
Going to College, two-way, seems to think the game well.

Definitely seems like a guy Feaster and company have been into lately.
MrMastodonFarm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2013, 07:58 AM   #5278
#-3
#1 Goaltender
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzard View Post
Florida took Booth with Calgary's second in 2004.

We got Marcus Nillson.
Thats Really Win-Win
#-3 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to #-3 For This Useful Post:
Old 06-10-2013, 08:37 AM   #5279
Da_Chief
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2007
Exp:
Default

I'd still like to see Cammi to CBJ for one of their 1sts. Also Gio to Philly for their first.

Come away with :
C - Sean Monahan (6th)
RW - Hunter Shinkaruk (11th)
LW - Alex Wennberg (19th)
RW - Kerby Rychel (24th)
C - JT Compher (28th)

Add ton of skill up front.

Then draft D from 3rd round on.
Da_Chief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2013, 08:42 AM   #5280
Fighting Banana Slug
#1 Goaltender
 
Fighting Banana Slug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by driveway View Post
2005 - Edward Vlassic 35 (Pavelec - 41, Abdelkader - 42, Stastny - 44, Latendress - 45)
2006 - Codey Burki 59 (McBain - 63)
2007 - Trevor Cann 49 (Simmonds 61)

2009 - Brian Durmoulin 51 (Nobody of note)
2010 - Bradley Ross 43 (Tyler Toffoli 47)
2011- Brandon Saad 43 (Nobody of note)
2012 - Jake McCabe 44 (Nobody of note)

Missing out on Brandon Saad hurts, and we sure could have used one of those 2005 guys.

And it's not true we only had one second round pick. We've only had our second round pick once.

We had these other 2nd rounders.
2011- Markus Granlund 45 (From NYR), Tyler Wotherspoon 57 (From Washington)
2012 - Patrick Sieloff 42 (from Buffalo)
Thanks for this. Impossible to say who the Flames would have drafted, had they stayed in that position, but it is safe to say that the odds of that pick playing meaningful minutes in the NHL is low. I like Vlasic, but am more than happy with the return of Kipper.

Having said that, it is painfully clear that the Flames need to re-stock in the worst way. The more picks the better to do just that.
Fighting Banana Slug is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:13 PM.

Calgary Flames
2024-25




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021 | See Our Privacy Policy