Do you believe in Ghosts?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

never had and never will believe in ghosts. the human imagination is much more powerful than people give it credit for, and if someone has a predisposition to believe in something, then our brain has a knack for filling in all the blanks to make it real

Before my experience I had no beliefs in ghosts. In fact I laughed at those who did.

[photon]

It's well known that the mind can see and hear things that aren't real (even while not under the influences ), and if it's the mind doing it you can't tell the difference. And memories are easily malleable, so what a person remembers isn't reliable.

That's why anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence.

For years people were crazy about crop circles, there was no human way to make them so it must be aliens. Then the guys that started them come forward and confess, and people don't even believe them!

And even if something is unexplained doesn't mean that the only alternative explanation is ghosts. Why ghosts and not elves?

Some rapper can throw a kid off a stage in some far flung country and there's instantly three videos on youtube from 3 different angles, yet there's never been clear evidence of paranormal phenomenon.

There's 1 million dollars sitting there ready for the taking!

Seriously, read the Demon Haunted World by Sagan, it may not convince a believer there isn't ghosts, but it should at least give an idea of what kind of things proof should entail.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by photon

It's well known that the mind can see and hear things that aren't real (even while not under the influences ), and if it's the mind doing it you can't tell the difference. And memories are easily malleable, so what a person remembers isn't reliable.

That's why anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence.

For years people were crazy about crop circles, there was no human way to make them so it must be aliens. Then the guys that started them come forward and confess, and people don't even believe them!

And even if something is unexplained doesn't mean that the only alternative explanation is ghosts. Why ghosts and not elves?

Some rapper can throw a kid off a stage in some far flung country and there's instantly three videos on youtube from 3 different angles, yet there's never been clear evidence of paranormal phenomenon.

There's 1 million dollars sitting there ready for the taking!

Seriously, read the Demon Haunted World by Sagan, it may not convince a believer there isn't ghosts, but it should at least give an idea of what kind of things proof should entail.

well said. there is a very good reason that every photo of every ghost or ufo or bigfoot or anything of that nature is fuzzy and blurred, clear photos would be too easy to spot as manipulated and the human brain wouldn't be able to fill in the blanks with it's own image. if any of that stuff were real, with all the surveillance that is around today the evidence should be piling up. but instead all that comes out is the same grainy pictures and movies that people made a hundred years ago

[McG]

Me? i'm still waiting for a photo of love or some other emotion. or maybe a picture of the wind. or maybe a picture of a light beam. or gravity.

seriously though, i know which side of this i fall on and some of these posts are pretty thought provoking.

in reality, just because someone offers money and no one claims it doesn't mean anything...other than no one claimed the money or took the time to prove it either way.

truthfully, until personal experiences, i didn't know what to believe.

and just as rational thought rules for some, emotions rule for others.

i don't think either side on this thread will convince the other.

this is certainly one of our more interesting threads in off season though.

[photon]

Originally Posted by McG

Me? i'm still waiting for a photo of love or some other emotion. or maybe a picture of the wind. or maybe a picture of a light beam. or gravity.

Well except for love, all of those things can be proven with physical evidence. And love is an emotion, by definition it only exists in our minds

But the claim is that ghosts are real and affect the physical world (by seeing them, dropping temperatures, moving things around, making noises, etc). All of those effects are physically measurable. And the claim that the ghosts talk to people is also measurable.

But no compelling evidence has ever been found.

in reality, just because someone offers money and no one claims it doesn't mean anything...other than no one claimed the money or took the time to prove it either way.

Of course, no one claims that it proves there isn't any ghosts (you typically can't prove a negative anyway).

It does say something though about the individuals who claim to have evidence but refuse to take the test. $1 million is surely worth the few hours it would take. Or if the individual doesn't want it or need it, how many charities really need that money?

[feartheflames]

since halloween is around the corner I thought I would revive this thread

[jolinar of malkshor]

I believe in the super natural for several reasons. First, why the heck can't there be other forces in this universe in possibily different dimensions or plains of existence? To say not is like saying we are the only life in the universe. Also, I am usually a skeptic and require some kind of physical evidence to help me believe something. I used a weejie board once and it scared the crap out of me. It was just me who used it and the thing was moving around answering my questions, not always answering them right but non the less.

[photon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I used a weejie board once and it scared the crap out of me. It was just me who used it and the thing was moving around answering my questions, not always answering them right but non the less.

You should read up on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect

Try blindfolding yourself and then using the board, you'll get nothing. Penn & Teller did this once in one of their shows too.

I believe in the super natural for several reasons. First, why the heck can't there be other forces in this universe in possibily different dimensions or plains of existence? To say not is like saying we are the only life in the universe.

They're not really the same.. the fact that we exist proves that live is possible in our universe, so expecting more life isn't beyond reason.

The first part of your statement is nonsense; asking why can't there be something isn't proof of that something. I have a invisible dragon in my garage. Why can't there be invisible dragons? So there must be.

Not saying there aren't ghosts, but real evidence is more than a creepy feeling and fallacious logic.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by photon

Seriously, read the Demon Haunted World by Sagan, it may not convince a believer there isn't ghosts, but it should at least give an idea of what kind of things proof should entail.

I think I have posted about this book multiple times on this board.

Really, it's a life changing book. You see the world differently after reading it. All (well ok not all, but a lot of) the bull**** in the world is apparent all of a sudden.

It should be required reading for all high school students. A world where everyone has read this book would be a world so far beyond what we live in today. Pseudo-science is a bigger cancer to society than cancer itself.

Dr. Richard Dawkins reviews "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark":

http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/...anreview.shtml

"As I close this eloquent and fascinating book, I recall the final chapter title from one of Carl Sagan’s earlier works, Cosmos. ‘Who Speaks for Earth?’ is a rhetorical question that expects no particular answer, but I presume to give it one. My candidate for planetary ambassador, my own nominee to present our credentials in galactic chancelleries, can be none other than Carl Sagan himself. He is wise, humane, polymathic, gentle, witty, well-read, and incapable of composing a dull sentence...I wish I had written The Demon-Haunted World. Having failed to do so, the least I can do is press it upon my friends. Please read this book."

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by photon

You should read up on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect

Try blindfolding yourself and then using the board, you'll get nothing. Penn & Teller did this once in one of their shows too.

What I experienced was real...not my subconsious mind moving the marker. This is not my only experience with the supernatural. My parents best friends lived on a farm that was haunted. If you stayed there one night you would believe to. But really, no matter what I say it isn't true as you seem to know everything when it comes to religon, quantum physics and the supernatural.

They're not really the same.. the fact that we exist proves that live is possible in our universe, so expecting more life isn't beyond reason.

They are the same. And since you are so into quantum physics you would know that there are an infinate amount of alternate realities. If that is possible it is not far off to think that there are other life forms in different dimensions or other plains of existence.

The first part of your statement is nonsense; asking why can't there be something isn't proof of that something. I have a invisible dragon in my garage. Why can't there be invisible dragons? So there must be.

Really? Thanks, yet you have such a strong belief in Hawkings Raditation, something that may never be seen or proven. Interesting.

Not saying there aren't ghosts, but real evidence is more than a creepy feeling and fallacious logic.

I agree 100%, and I think you and I are more on the same page than it might appear on this forum. However, I have had experiences in my life that make me believe in these things.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by troutman

Why there are almost certainly no ghosts:

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event.

To date, no one has ever passed the preliminary tests

If anyone could prove it, they would get $1,000,000.00.

Yep.

I don't believe in ghosts, most ghost stories are 2nd hand; most stories from people who claim it to be true are often people's imagination playing games on them.

[WesternCanadaKing]

I don't believe in ghosts, mainly because I've never experienced anything paranormal in my life, and neither has anyone I've ever known. The closest I've come is getting really freaked out at my grandpa's really old house in a small town in Idaho. It would get creepy as hell at night, just because it was so dark and would make the occasional weird noise.

And I kind of find it funny that ghosts have nothing better to do but communicate with people in obscure, creepy ways. Why do they have to be so creepy with everything they do, like random screams or appearing for a split second.

Not to say that these stories aren't intriguing, especially considering how many of them are first hand accounts. Its probably true that you need to experience an encounter first hand to believe it, and I'm still waiting for one.

[SeeGeeWhy]

There are ghosts in my house... concentrated activity to our staircase that has a very low handrail. The house was built in 1918, so it's probably seen a lot. My wife sees most of the action.

[photon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

What I experienced was real...not my subconsious mind moving the marker. This is not my only experience with the supernatural. My parents best friends lived on a farm that was haunted. If you stayed there one night you would believe to. But really, no matter what I say it isn't true as you seem to know everything when it comes to religon, quantum physics and the supernatural.

So tell me how do you know the difference between the ideomotor effect and ghosts moving your hands? Your mind is fallible, easily tricked (as are all minds).

Lol, bitter much? I don't claim to know everything, but I try to look at things with a skeptical eye, while you seem to want to believe everything. I show one thing that is an alternative explanation for your experience with the ouija board (therefore making it not proof of the supernatural), and you're throwing insults. Try looking at things objectively if you want to discuss them.

They are the same.

They aren't the same at all. There is evidence of life and the conditions for life are likely repeated across many worlds, so more life is a reasonable expectation. There is no evidence of ghosts, so it isn't reasonable to expect them just based on the "why can't there be" argument.

I'm not saying this is evidence that there aren't ghosts, just saying it can't be used as evidence there are ghosts.

Do you see the difference in the logic? I'm not sure how else to explain it.

And since you are so into quantum physics you would know that there are an infinate amount of alternate realities. If that is possible it is not far off to think that there are other life forms in different dimensions or other plains of existence.

Multiple parallel universes is one proposed idea to deal with some observed things, but it's not an accepted view of reality yet, there's no direct evidence for it.

See now you've changed the proposed question. A life form in a different dimension isn't a ghost (spirit of a departed person). Maybe the things people see as ghosts are life forms in parallel universes coming through somehow, and that should be eventually testable within the realms of science. But to this point there's been no real evidence, so it's not reasonable to say that's the case yet.

Really? Thanks, yet you have such a strong belief in Hawkings Raditation, something that may never be seen or proven. Interesting.

Who said I believed in hawking radiation? I sure didn't. You're the one who's said that asking why something can't exists supports the existence of that thing.

However to compare hawking radiation and ghosts is dumb, one is predicted by math and theories that have been proven to be accurate so far, while the other exists only in the minds of humans, and we know those minds aren't accurate indications of reality.

I agree 100%, and I think you and I are more on the same page than it might appear on this forum. However, I have had experiences in my life that make me believe in these things.

The difference is you put faith in your experiences, while I understand my experiences aren't a reliable source of evidence.

The ouija board is a perfect example.. You say it something that supports your believe in a spiritual realm, but I provide evidence that your experience could have just as easily been caused by your own mind, and provide a way test if it one or the other. A scientific response to losing evidence that supports a theory is to question the theory. Ouija board moving could be caused ideomotor effect, so it can't be used to support belief in a spirit world. But does that weaken your belief in a spirit world? I doubt it. That's called confirmation bias, using evidence to support your position and disregarding evidence that doesn't.

Seriously, read the book that evman150 posted about, "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark", it will do a far better job explaining what I'm trying to say in a way I never could.

[GreenLantern]

I do not believe in Ghosts but I have these friends who rented a cabin up at Otter Lake. (past La Ronge, lots of First Nations in the area) It was rumored that the former owner of the cabin (first nation) was murdered by white people. So they were sleeping one night and all of a sudden they heard like a growling/grumbling sound coming from one of the dark corners in the room. Next thing they knew there was a native in full get up standing infront of them with bullet wounds in his chest. He opened his mouth to speak and out came the words... Go Flames Go!!!

True story. I have no proof, but take my word for it.

[simonarea]

I had an "out of body" experience before

Met couple of other people with same experience

anyone else?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by photon

See now you've changed the proposed question. A life form in a different dimension isn't a ghost (spirit of a departed person). Maybe the things people see as ghosts are life forms in parallel universes coming through somehow, and that should be eventually testable within the realms of science. But to this point there's been no real evidence, so it's not reasonable to say that's the case yet.

Where did I say it was a spirit of a departed person? I didn't I said I believe in the supernatural. Maybe it is maybe it isn't. It is just as likely as being a entity from another dimension as it is a spirit of a dead person. Interesting that you can believe in the possibility of "ghosts" being entities from another dimension but no way in hell is it a "spirit" of a previous living being. Very interesting.

[TheDragon]

Originally Posted by troutman

Why there are almost certainly no ghosts:

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event.

To date, no one has ever passed the preliminary tests

If anyone could prove it, they would get $1,000,000.00.

That prize is almost as make-believe as those who try to claim it, though. Have you read the criteria required in order to even qualify to be judged? You have to be a member of the media or have something published, and your claim of proof has to be reacted in front of a panel. There's almost no way to prove "ghosts" are real, because you can't really tell the ghost "Okay, show up here at this time so I can prove to the judges you're real," assuming such is the case. In almost all cases, paranormal activity is sporadic and unpredicted.

Furthermore, should an entry make it pass the preliminary requirements, there's likely a very large panel of judges who can sit there and "prove" that any of the recorded data has been staged, photoshopped, or is a natural phenomenon that debunks it as anything supernatural or abnormal.

As mentioned before, no science is 100%, not even the stuff we know is real. There's always room for reasonable doubt, and in this case, as long as there is reasonable doubt, nobody will be able to claim the prize.

I'm not picking sides, here... but it really grinds my gears when this gets used as an argument. I don't necessarily believe in ghosts either, but I know for a fact that some things fall under the category of unexplainable, and not even the FBI or Nasa can properly explain them outside of educated guess.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheDragon

That prize is almost as make-believe as those who try to claim it, though....

Furthermore, should an entry make it pass the preliminary requirements, there's likely a very large panel of judges who can sit there and "prove" that any of the recorded data has been staged, photoshopped, or is a natural phenomenon that debunks it as anything supernatural or abnormal.

By very definition "supernatural" and "paranormal" are completely untestable, are they not? So, in the—in my opinion, very unlikely—event that someone is even able to present a good case of paranormal or supernatural activity, in order for it to pass muster it would necessarily need to be reclassified as a natural phenomenon. This would then disqualify it from contention for the prize money.

All rather silly stuff.

[Burninator]

I think it's great that there is a organization that is objectively looking at paranormal and supernatural claims. As everything that has been tested has been trickery or self delusion. Dragon, it's not like this panel of judges that you speak of are dismissing these claims on minor grounds, they are dismissing them on fault of the very power someone claims to have. For example if someone can claim to communicate with ghosts, then they will try to find out if the person is accurate. I recall one case where a person listed off details of a dead person that he claimed he was communicating with. Sure enough after the first result from a Google search shows the exact same information that the ghost whisperer claimed to have gotten from the ghost. Talking with ghosts? or lying? Can't say for sure of course, but the trickery is often very obvious.