2016 NHL Draft

[Calgary4LIfe]

I had picked Jost as the guy @6 if Tkachuk/Dubois are gone. I think he is the most complete player among forwards left, and the most complimentary player barring Brown attaining anywhere close to his ceiling.

Jost is fast, highly skilled, a great shooter and playmaker, wonderful high-end IQ, a high compete level and a absurd non-stop motor. Unlike Keller, he isn't undersized either, though he won't be 'adding' size, he is at least average height. I like him a lot more than Nylander in terms of fit for the Flames, and see him as a guy that will really fit with Bennett. I think the two of them would drive opposing teams nuts with their combination of high-end skill and complete hounds on the puck - that forecheck would cause a lot of turnovers I think, and if Poirier rebounds a bit this year, that would be a complete line that other teams would have fits over.

I can already think of Mr. Burns and his "Release the hounds" phrase.

Brown I think fits the Flames the best in terms of what they have said they are trying to do - get both skilled and bigger in the top 6, and that isn't easy to do outside the first round, so I do think that barring a Tkachuk or Dubois falling to them, Brown seems like the best 'fit'. Jost I think is the next best fit, and I think his bust factor is minimal - I can't ever remember a player who has that high of an IQ and compete level and who makes others around him better end up a bust.

Keller is (IMO) a bit more skilled, but not THAT much more. He is smaller (though he isn't tiny), which detracts away from what the Flames have outlined as a blueprint.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Keller is (IMO) a bit more skilled, but not THAT much more.

Well we know as teammmates at the U18s, Keller (2.0 PPG) outscored Brown (1.44 PPG) by ~38.9%

Despite all the caveats (tiny sample, translatability) I think it's safe to say that there's a gap between their skill level that's "that" much more. Now whether you think the gap in skill will translate "that" much more at the next level is the real question.

[FBI]

I would like Keller, Jost, AND Brown. How do we make that happen?

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by FBI

I would like Keller, Jost, AND Brown. How do we make that happen?

Trade two of Hamilton, Monahan, Gaudreau, Bennett, or Bodie.

Still wanting?

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Trade two of Hamilton, Monahan, Gaudreau, Bennett, or Bodie.

Still wanting?

Gio might get you a pick high enough to snag one of those prospects as well.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Brown I think fits the Flames the best in terms of what they have said they are trying to do Brown seems like the best 'fit'.

We may be reading too much into those comments. Unless the Flames are pretty convinced that Brown is a Koitar like player, I don't think they'll be picking him just for size. The 'big heavy' teams that the Flames want to emulate have size in their bottom 6 and on the back end. St.Louis still used first round picks on Schwartz, Tarasenko, and Fabbri. They don't just blindly draft size. Even San Jose has Couture and Pavelski leading the way.

I expect to see a lot more Hunter Smith and Kanzig style later picks hoping to hit the size lottery. But I think they'll still add skill early on when it's still there.

[FBI]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Trade two of Hamilton, Monahan, Gaudreau, Bennett, or Bodie.

Still wanting?

How about something like:
a trade down from 6 to something like 12 and 20 and then a trade up of a ton of our second rounders and third rounder to 19?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Brown's upside is huge but he may be seen as someone with a lower downside or lower probability of hitting max upside. If you think Brown will be anywhere between a 3rd and 1st line centre and you're not sure where he'll top out that may not be as appealing as a guy who your scouts think can be anywhere between a #1 to #3 dman but who your scouts think is a very good bet to be at least a #2.

I think Brown's definitely in the conversation. Benning and Chiarelli have both talked about Brown and neither has mentioned Nylander. Big skilled centre > average sized skilled winger for me every day of the week. But I still think it's very possible the Flames have at least one defenseman ahead of Brown.

I think at #6 we should be looking for a potential big #1 centre (Brown), potential top pairing dman (Chychrun, Juolevi, Sergachev), or 1st line skilled winger who plays a heavy game (Dubois, Tkachuk). Those are the most valuable commodities in the game. Maybe our scouts don't even think Brown has #1 centre upside? If so maybe he's not in the discussion after all. I find it hard to believe our scouts wouldn't project at least 2 of the defensemen this year to have top pairing upside.

Skilled wingers with average size are the easiest to trade for and add as the finishing piece when you're contending. We'll have the assets to pick up a guy similar to Kessel (salary retained), Gaborik, etc later on in this rebuild, heck we have those assets already. You can add that Nylander type of player last at a trade deadline sometime when you're a division leader. The type of player he projects to just isn't as critical as getting a big #1 centre, top pairing dman, or big skilled heavy winger IMO.

We're looking for another foundational player to build around. I love the idea of having so many good centres that we move some to the wing. Good organizations often do that. I love the idea of adding another potential top pairing defenseman and potentially having a few years where the Flames could arguably have 4 top pairing dmen at once in Gio, Brodie, Hamilton (if/when he progresses) and the draft pick this year. I love the idea of adding a big, strong, powerful skilled winger who can dominate on the cycle, screen the goalie, make plays with defenders draped all over him as we don't have anybody like that at all. But another finesse winger when we already have one of the best ones? Meh. Least important position to fill. Good finesse wingers are always available in trade IMO. Big skilled centres and big top pairing dmen, those are the gold of the entry draft. Extremely hard to trade for if you never draft them yourself. If we can get a potential one at #6 we have to go that route regardless of immediate needs at wing because we'd be getting a premium commodity in the NHL.

There's my latest argument against Nylander lol. Wish the draft would come sooner as I'm definitely talking around in circles on this. Hopefully I added something new in the argument, lol.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Brown I think fits the Flames the best in terms of what they have said they are trying to do - get both skilled and bigger in the top 6, and that isn't easy to do outside the first round, so I do think that barring a Tkachuk or Dubois falling to them, Brown seems like the best 'fit'.

Actually Brown least fits what the Flames are needing. First off, he is not physical at all and he never will be. More importantly he is a centre and is going to play as one so exactly where is he going to play on our squad? We are set at centre going forward for sure in the top two spots, moving either Bennett or Monahan to the wing would be stupidity. The third line C spot is locked down by Backlund with others like Jankowski challenging. Now you take into factor how many 6'6 skill players you ever see in the NHL go on to have a great career, you don't. Brown is the absolute last guy mentioned in the upper half of the draft we should be considering.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Brown's upside is huge but he may be seen as someone with a lower downside or lower probability of hitting max upside. If you think Brown will be anywhere between a 3rd and 1st line centre and you're not sure where he'll top out that may not be as appealing as a guy who your scouts think can be anywhere between a #1 to #3 dman but who your scouts think is a very good bet to be at least a #2.

I think Brown's definitely in the conversation. Benning and Chiarelli have both talked about Brown and neither has mentioned Nylander. Big skilled centre > average sized skilled winger for me every day of the week. But I still think it's very possible the Flames have at least one defenseman ahead of Brown.

I think at #6 we should be looking for a potential big #1 centre (Brown), potential top pairing dman (Chychrun, Juolevi, Sergachev), or 1st line skilled winger who plays a heavy game (Dubois, Tkachuk). Those are the most valuable commodities in the game. Maybe our scouts don't even think Brown has #1 centre upside? If so maybe he's not in the discussion after all. I find it hard to believe our scouts wouldn't project at least 2 of the defensemen this year to have top pairing upside.

Skilled wingers with average size are the easiest to trade for and add as the finishing piece when you're contending. We'll have the assets to pick up a guy similar to Kessel (salary retained), Gaborik, etc later on in this rebuild, heck we have those assets already. You can add that Nylander type of player last at a trade deadline sometime when you're a division leader. The type of player he projects to just isn't as critical as getting a big #1 centre, top pairing dman, or big skilled heavy winger IMO.

We're looking for another foundational player to build around. I love the idea of having so many good centres that we move some to the wing. Good organizations often do that. I love the idea of adding another potential top pairing defenseman and potentially having a few years where the Flames could arguably have 4 top pairing dmen at once in Gio, Brodie, Hamilton (if/when he progresses) and the draft pick this year. I love the idea of adding a big, strong, powerful skilled winger who can dominate on the cycle, screen the goalie, make plays with defenders draped all over him as we don't have anybody like that at all. But another finesse winger when we already have one of the best ones? Meh. Least important position to fill. Good finesse wingers are always available in trade IMO. Big skilled centres and big top pairing dmen, those are the gold of the entry draft. Extremely hard to trade for if you never draft them yourself. If we can get a potential one at #6 we have to go that route regardless of immediate needs at wing because we'd be getting a premium commodity in the NHL.

There's my latest argument against Nylander lol. Wish the draft would come sooner as I'm definitely talking around in circles on this. Hopefully I added something new in the argument, lol.

You keep going on about how easy it is to acquire top end RW talent and it is just not true. Besides Kessel, name me any skilled RW that get traded easily? I think it is a harder position to fill than D actually. How many high end RW RS players are in the NHL? How many of those guys are ever moved?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

You keep going on about how easy it is to acquire top end RW talent and it is just not true. Besides Kessel, name me any skilled RW that get traded easily? I think it is a harder position to fill than D actually. How many high end RW RS players are in the NHL? How many of those guys are ever moved?

...And Kessel was traded for his motor/compete level issues in a market that turned on him, same reason Ryan Johansen (#1 Center) was traded. Terrible example.

Gaborik was OLD and the Kings are regretting what they gave up in that trade as they ended up extending him to a ship anchor deal.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

...And Kessel was traded for his motor/compete level issues in a market that turned on him, same reason Ryan Johansen (#1 Center) was traded. Terrible example.

Gaborik was OLD and the Kings are regretting what they gave up in that trade as they ended up extending him to a ship anchor deal.

I think the Kings are wrote happy with the cup they won with Gaborik

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Actually Brown least fits what the Flames are needing. First off, he is not physical at all and he never will be. More importantly he is a centre and is going to play as one so exactly where is he going to play on our squad? We are set at centre going forward for sure in the top two spots, moving either Bennett or Monahan to the wing would be stupidity. The third line C spot is locked down by Backlund with others like Jankowski challenging. Now you take into factor how many 6'6 skill players you ever see in the NHL go on to have a great career, you don't. Brown is the absolute last guy mentioned in the upper half of the draft we should be considering.

Well in one sense I agree with you as I've argued Brown may not have risen as high on the Flames list as other teams because we're not desperate for big, skilled centres as much as other teams are.

However I think your argument about how few big skilled 6'6 forwards excel goes both ways. If Brown achieves his #1-2 centre potential then he becomes hugely valuable because he's a big skilled 6'6 centre which would be a massively rare commodity in the league.

It's like if in Chara's draft year you argued that there has never been a good 6'9 defenseman. Who cares about the past? You have to be looking to the future and the game is changing and evolving and kids are bigger and bigger. Trust your scouts and if he turns out you have a fantastic commodity, a true rarity in the league. One team did and they landed a franchise d-man despite the fact no 6'9 players had ever excelled before. They later traded him away because their GM was Mike Milbury but that's beside the point.

If the Flames have Brown in their top 6 then they think he has extremely high potential and if he comes close to meeting that potential he'll be extremely valuable. I don't think any of us should rule out that possibility as there have been lots of whispers that some teams/scouts have moved him into their top 6.

But I'm like you, I think the Flames may not have him as high as #6. But let's not use his size against him in a weak argument. He is being talked about as a potential top 10 pick because of that size, skill, skating combination. Any team that has him top 6 thinks he can be a 6'6 #1 centre and that's hugely valuable. I'm not sold he's a good bet to be a #1, I think he could top out as a #2 and that would drop him for me considering we have Bennett, Monahan and Jankowski as potential top two centres already. I'm gathering your thought process is similar. How much more upside does he have than Jankowski?

In the end I think the question the Flames may have asked themselves is, "Is Brown so far ahead of the other options at #6 that we'd take him despite having Bennett, Monahan, Jankowski and Backlund already?" To me the answer is very likely to be no. I see lots of other appealing options at various positions. Brown isn't a clearcut top 6 player to me unless your team is hurting real bad for big skilled top two line centres.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I think the Kings are wrote happy with the cup they won with Gaborik

They already had their cup, no one forced them to sign Gaborik to that deal after. LA has a great team but they get too attached to the horses that got them there IMO. It would be different if guys like Gaborik and Brown were younger, but those deals looked atrocious the moment they were announced. Just because they won with them yesterday doesn't mean they will tomorrow.

Maybe it doesn't matter, after all they seem to have the means to void contracts they don't like.

[Vulcan]

What's said about Brown reminds me of Pete Mahovlich.

While Pete Mahovlich never really had a nickname that stuck quite like that, little brother Pete should have been known as "The Bigger M." Pete Mahovlich towered not only over brother Frank, but everyone else in the NHL. He stood at 6'5" and weighed 215 pounds. A player of that size is becoming more and more common today's NHL, but someone of that size playing hockey was almost unheard of back in the 1960 and 1970s.

As today's fans know, players of such huge size are often tagged as slow skaters and having poor hands. Oddly enough, Mahovlich excelled as a stickhandler, playmaker and penalty killer, and considering his awkward size was a good skater. What he lacked in speed and agility, he made up for with a crafty and industrious approach to the game that rarely left him out of the action.

http://habslegends.blogspot.ca/2007/...mahovlich.html

[Teroy]

I'm in the "we need a right winger" camp. If Nylander is there at 6, take him. If not drop down and take Gauthier.

[FlameZilla]

I have a feeling we'll get one of Dubois of Tkachuk.

I'm also fairly confident we could get the Blue Jackets' 3rd overall pick if we dangeled Backlund in front of their noses. They're pretty desperate for a good centreman. It might sting, but we have plenty of C depth now & Backs will be UFA soon. His value may never be higher than it is now, and if it would net us one of those Finnish RWers we'd have a well-balanced squad with a lot of young players coming of age around the same time.

[Monahan For Mayor]

Coilers GM just deflected conversation about Joulevi, to Tkachuk. I honestly feel like if the oilers keep there pick they take one of those Knights. Sure hope it's not Tkachuk. Dubois will not make it past Van.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Monahan For Mayor

Coilers GM just deflected conversation about Joulevi, to Tkachuk. I honestly feel like if the oilers keep there pick they take one of those Knights. Sure hope it's not Tkachuk. Dubois will not make it past CBJ.

What?

[Monahan For Mayor]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

What?

Vancouver* my bad haha.