2016 NHL Draft

[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

When he's healthy, Frolik is a 20/20 guy who kills penalties while not getting much/any time on the power play.

He's not a 3rd liner.

I agree that he didn't see much PP time which sucks for him but he is not a second liner. He hasn't scored 20 goals since '09-10. And he would not be on the second line on most successful teams. I agree he is a great penalty killer that can chip in once in awhile, but that what makes him a perfect 3rd liner. The most PP goals he has ever had in one year was 5- in his whole career.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/stats/...michael-frolik

[Caged Great]

If Frolik isn't a 3rd liner on your team, then you simply aren't very good.

It's the same thing with Backlund. Both are very good players, but if they are too high on your depth chart, you don't have enough talent.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

If Frolik isn't a 3rd liner on your team, then you simply aren't very good.

It's the same thing with Backlund. Both are very good players, but if they are too high on your depth chart, you don't have enough talent.

Meh. I think Frolik is like Stempniak, he can play up and down your lineup. I don't think if Frolik is a 2nd liner on your team that it necessarily means your team sucks. It kind of depends how you use him. His creativity isn't amazing. But he's good at everything. You can use him as the defensive conscience on a line but he showed absolutely zero chemistry with Monahan and Gaudreau. Wouldn't surprise me if Frolik is paired with Bennett next year and receives more PP time under a new coach. Wouldn't surprise me if Frolik's utilization was a bit of a disagreement between Treliving and Hartley.

Backlund can play with almost anybody. Bouma, Colborne, Frolik, etc. He elevates their game. I'm not sure Bennett-Colborne is the combo we're looking for. Here's my early thoughts on next years chemistry:

Gaudreau-Monahan-XXXX
YYYY-Bennett-Frolik
Ferland-Backlund-Colborne
Bouma-Grant-Hathaway

Ferland could play anywhere from 1st line wing with Johnny/Mony to 3rd line depending on how much the next coach trusts him. Treliving needs to be adding at least one winger through UFA or trade maybe two.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

When he's healthy, Carl Hagelin is a 20/20 guy who kills penalties while not getting much/any time on the power play.

...He's a 3rd liner.

Carl "I've never hit 20 goals or 40 points" Hagelin?

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

When he's healthy, Frolik is a 20/20 guy who kills penalties while not getting much/any time on the power play.

He's not a 3rd liner.

He last scored 20 goals 6 years ago and rarely goes an entire season without injury.

He's a really expensive 3rd liner who's contract will be pretty bad by years 4-5.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

He last scored 20 goals 6 years ago and rarely goes an entire season without injury.

He's a really expensive 3rd liner who's contract will be pretty bad by years 4-5.

Well he scored 19 the year before last and scored 15 in 64 last year. So yeah, he's pretty much a 20 goal scorer. And we're talking about a 28 year old. It's not like he's old or should be expected to decline anytime soon. We've seen players have bounce back years or even career years in their 30's. Assuming his contract will be bad in a few years seems a stretch. Is it possible? Sure. Is it possible he actually gets a bigger role under a new coach? Yeah.

Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the next coach uses Frolik on the PP more and Frolik has a solid 20/50 season while being excellent defensively. I think he can be a 2nd line winger on a good team as a complimentary winger who is the defensive conscience with more offensive players.

[Sylvanfan]

Pretty much being a 20 goal guy and actually being are different. Frolik might have one more 20 goal season...maybe even a 50 point season. But 4 out of 5 years of that contract he will fall far short of those totals.

As for being excellent defensively great if it results in a few extra wins. Worst PK and goals against in the NHL last year. His excellent defensive play yielded no results.

The player drafted 6th overall this year better be a better player than the guy drafted 10th in 06.

[Ashasx]

i don't really see why Frolik would fall hard at all by the age of 32.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Pretty much being a 20 goal guy and actually being are different. Frolik might have one more 20 goal season...maybe even a 50 point season. But 4 out of 5 years of that contract he will fall far short of those totals.

I didn't know you wrote the future. Tell us more about what happens in 3-5 years!

[Shakes head]

[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well he scored 19 the year before last and scored 15 in 64 last year. So yeah, he's pretty much a 20 goal scorer. And we're talking about a 28 year old. It's not like he's old or should be expected to decline anytime soon. We've seen players have bounce back years or even career years in their 30's. Assuming his contract will be bad in a few years seems a stretch. Is it possible? Sure. Is it possible he actually gets a bigger role under a new coach? Yeah.

Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the next coach uses Frolik on the PP more and Frolik has a solid 20/50 season while being excellent defensively. I think he can be a 2nd line winger on a good team as a complimentary winger who is the defensive conscience with more offensive players.

Colborne scored 19 last year and is a pretty good penalty killer himself. Joe's career PPG- 0.45. Frolik's PPG- 0.46. And big Joe is younger with more upside IMO but is not and shouldn't be a solid 2nd liner. I was just trying to state the opinion that Frolik is more of a 3rd liner and his contract is kinda expensive and may haunt us down the line is all. It's just my opinion that you should be paying bonafied 2nd liners 5.5 m for 4-5 years instead of a floater who is best suited on a 3rd line and has 3rd line career stats.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I didn't know you wrote the future. Tell us more about what happens in 3-5 years!

[Shakes head]

I'll be here in 4 years. I'll be happy to be wrong too on Frolik. But find me a long list of forwards who broke into the league at 21 years old who's highest offensive outputs happened after age 28 and kept it up. Especially guys who never put up 25 goals or 50 points prior to turning 27.

Joe Pavelski like surges in production are very rare.

Keep shaking your head, maybe your rose colored glasses will fall off.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by cowtown75

Colborne scored 19 last year and is a pretty good penalty killer himself. Joe's career PPG- 0.45. Frolik's PPG- 0.46. And big Joe is younger with more upside IMO but is not and shouldn't be a solid 2nd liner. I was just trying to state the opinion that Frolik is more of a 3rd liner and his contract is kinda expensive and may haunt us down the line is all. It's just my opinion that you should be paying bonafied 2nd liners 5.5 m for 4-5 years instead of a floater who is best suited on a 3rd line and has 3rd line career stats.

Who's a floater? If you're suggesting it's Frolik then I'm not sure we're watching the same team. Colborne doesn't have the all around game and smarts that Frolik has. Why are you talking about 5.5 million? Frolik's cap hit is 4.3 million, that's the only number that matters. Frolik is an elite 3rd liner or a solid 2nd liner. I doubt his contract will ever really hurt that much as he's solidly in his prime and there's no reason to think his game will drop off significantly during this entire contract. You always overpay for UFAs so that he's slightly overpaid is to be expected since he was signed as an UFA.

Frolik is the least of our worries. Flames don't really have any crippling long term contracts IMO.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I'll be here in 4 years. I'll be happy to be wrong too on Frolik. But find me a long list of forwards who broke into the league at 21 years old who's highest offensive outputs happened after age 28 and kept it up. Especially guys who never put up 25 goals or 50 points prior to turning 27.

Joe Pavelski like surges in production are very rare.

Keep shaking your head, maybe your rose colored glasses will fall off.

Not sure what I've said is rose coloured. If Frolik continues his production of the last 3 years I'm fine with his contract. He has as much chance of falling off as he does of improving his production IMO. I'm not predicting he increases his production, just pointing out it's a possibility under a new coach with increased PP usage. You seem to think I'm expecting an increase in production but I never said that.

I was pretty happy with his play last year, he got a bit unlucky with injuries. He was our 2nd line RW and did well at it IMO. He vastly outperformed Hudler and Jones who were on similar contracts. IMO he's our best two-way winger. I think he was our 2nd best winger last year after Johnny. Are people seriously disappointed in his on ice play last year? He was a great pickup for free IMO. Sure you'd rather have him at 3.5 or w/e but 4.3 is far from crippling for a solid veteran with size, skating, skill, character and great defensive play.

IMO he'll give us for the remainder of his contract much more than we wish we were getting from Stajan on his current contract. In the cap era most veterans are overpaid (see Wideman, Stajan). Having Frolik as one of our slightly overpaid vets seems great to me. He's a young vet who can play 2nd or 3rd line RW. Awesome IMO.

[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Who's a floater? If you're suggesting it's Frolik then I'm not sure we're watching the same team. Colborne doesn't have the all around game and smarts that Frolik has. Why are you talking about 5.5 million? Frolik's cap hit is 4.3 million, that's the only number that matters. Frolik is an elite 3rd liner or a solid 2nd liner. I doubt his contract will ever really hurt that much as he's solidly in his prime and there's no reason to think his game will drop off significantly during this entire contract. You always overpay for UFAs so that he's slightly overpaid is to be expected since he was signed as an UFA.

Frolik is the least of our worries. Flames don't really have any crippling long term contracts IMO.

Yes, you are correct- 4.3m cap- Not sure why I thought 5.5m. But yes I agree that you usually over pay for UFA's and I feel like we definitely did with Frolik. I'm sorry, but I still feel Frolik is a 3rd liner all day long ( just my opinion) and wouldn't be seen on many teams second line. I don't hate on the guy, but I still don't like the contract. He also can't seem to put in a full season without being hurt a lot which makes me dislike the contract even more. Anyways, off of topic, back to talking about the draft....

Hope we get Tkachuk.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

When he's healthy, Carl Hagelin is a 20/20 guy who kills penalties while not getting much/any time on the power play.

...He's a 3rd liner.

How many teams have six 20-goal scorers on their top two lines?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

I get disliking the contract and thinking he's a 3rd liner. But I think he's a 3rd liner in the sense that Backlund is a 3rd liner. If they are on your 3rd line then you are an elite team. But both players have shown they are very competent 2nd liners IMO. Both players were 2nd line players for us last year and performed well. I think most people are happy with Backlund at 3.5 so Frolik at 4.3 for a 0.8 million difference due to signing as an UFA seems reasonable to me.

I think fans can get mesmerized into the idea of having guys on absolute steal contracts. And sure successful teams will need some of those. But its unrealistic to expect to have steals all over the place. Higher profile UFAs by nature are going to sign deals that do not look like steals. So should we always be disappointed in UFAs because their contracts aren't amazing? I think we are tempted to think like that but we probably shouldn't.

Stajan at 3.5 for a 4th line centre who is barely beating out the competition for that role is bad.
Raymond at 3.0 to play in the minors is bad
Wideman at 5.25 to play 3rd pairing who is arguably not beating out Hamilton or Nakladal for a PP spot is bad and I think we trade him this offseason
Frolik at age 28 who can play 2nd line RW on a medium team or 3rd line RW on an elite team on a 4.3? It's not a super efficient contract but if you're going to overpay a few vets I think his contract is dece. At least he's still helping you while he's not scoring which can be a problem with streaky goal scoring wingers who often get overpaid. At least he's a young vet and thus his play shouldn't drop off anytime soon. Love that he's a two-way player

If Frolik is the worst contract on the team (which theoretically he could be in 3 years) we're in fantastic shape cap wise IMO. Maybe I value his versatility and two-way play more than some people? Could be. But I'm happy to have both him and Gio as two of our potentially overpaid vets. Some people hate those contracts, I'm fine with them. You can't have zero vets.

One can't compare the value you get from players on RFA contracts vs players signed as UFAs. UFAs are almost always overpaid. But all teams are going to have some. So all teams are going to have some guys that appear to be overpaid. Fact is that's market value for older players. And older players always look overpaid compared to younger players still on RFA deals. But it doesn't mean the answer is to have no older players. Frolik as a young veteran is a great fit for many years IMO. I think he can be a great two-way 2nd line RW until the point where we are so deep that he is pushed to the 3rd.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

How many teams have six 20-goal scorers on their top two lines?

I think this is an excellent point.
I tend to think you need a true top line pair, and a true 2nd line pair.
And then the 3rd member of each line is a complimentary piece that wouldn't be on that spot in isolation.

[Monahan For Mayor]

Came here for draft discussion, found out Frolik is a floater. Learn something new everyday.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

I wonder if Tkachuk has a chance of dropping just due to his mediocre skating? Is it just me or does he look slower than earlier in the year? I think the foot injury from last round of the OHL Playoffs might be bothering him. I wonder if that causes any worrying in the war rooms. I mean he really shouldn't drop because of that since skating is something that can be improved on. Horvat looked way faster this year for example, his skating wasn't exceptional in his draft year. But maybe some scouts forget he had that foot injury and that skating nags at them.

I think VAN really values skating although Benning has talked Tkachuk up. EDM seems to like Tkachuk from hearing Chiarelli talk about him. If Tkachuk and Dubois are fairly equally liked by certain teams than maybe Dubois gets the nod due to skating?

If EDM takes Dubois at #4 then I'm not sure Benning automatically takes Tkachuk. Their last two picks are wingers (Virtanen/Boeser) and they've got young Baertschi as well. How on earth does VAN find top pairing dmen or a 1st line centre if they don't draft one this year? IMO it would be a huge mistake for VAN to draft wingers in three straight drafts with two top 6 picks when wing is the least important position in the NHL. Of course we shouldn't overestimate Dim Jim

IMO the following scenario is not out of the question:
#4 - EDM - Dubois (C/W)
#5 - VAN - Brown (C) or Sergachev (D) or Chychrun (D) or Juolevi (D)
#6 - CGY - Tkachuk (LW)

Maybe it's wishful thinking. I've also reconsidered my stance on trading up to #4. Not sure it would be worth it to do so if the Flames are truly comfortable with the kids in the 4-6 range. Pretty comfortable we'll get a great prospect at #6.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

When he's healthy, Frolik is a 20/20 guy who kills penalties while not getting much/any time on the power play.

He's not a 3rd liner.

Ideally, he's a third liner. Playing with Backlund on that third line makes them solid in both ends of the ice, and one of the better third line combos in the league.

I think the Flames have some really solid pieces in place going forward. They have a great first line pair, an excellent second line center, the aforementioned third line pair, and some really interesting pieces to fill out the lineup. The obvious need is on RW on the first line, but there are some interesting pieces in place to fill out the rest of the lineup. Colborne, Ferland, and Bouma add some good size and bring a mix of skill. Shinkaruk showed some decent skill and drive for a smaller player and could be a good player going forward. Hathaway seems to be a perfect fit on the bottom line and some good size as well. Prybil will hopefully develop into a player to fill in on the right side. A couple of interesting names to consider over the next season are Jankowski and Pollack, who both bring size and skill to their games. Personally, I think this team isn't that far off. Of course, the key will be a goaltender and filling that top RW slot. The rest is falling into place.