The moral philosophy of favouring pets over humans

[troutman]

Ever walk a chicken or have one lay on the foot of your bed tending to you while you were sick?

No, but there are dogs that help the blind and police. Pigs that find truffles. Horses that pull loads.

[arsenal]

Originally posted by jonesy@Sep 8 2005, 01:38 PM
No conflict for me, humans >>> animals.

we are all sitting in our houses, offices in areas that were at one time the domain of animals. to say some poor sot hiking in banff deserves it, since he is encroaching on the bears is hyporcritical.

and i like bears.

I don't think anyone is saying that a hiker in Banff deserves to get mauled for just minding their own busy, enjoying the back country. But if the hiker does happen to encounter a bear, with cubs on the trail, chances are very good, that they will get attacked, and possibly killed.
Do I think that the bear should then be destroyed? No. The bear was just doing what any parent would do. Protect their young. You can't fault a bear for that.
If a bear is going out of its way to attack humans, then yes, I would consider that a problem bear, and would agree if the Rangers deemed it needed to be destroyed.

But there are risks associated with travelling in the back country. Running into a bear is one of them.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally posted by arsenal+Sep 8 2005, 08:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (arsenal @ Sep 8 2005, 08:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-jonesy@Sep 8 2005, 01:38 PM
No conflict for me, humans >>> animals.

we are all sitting in our houses, offices in areas that were at one time the domain of animals.# to say some poor sot hiking in banff deserves it,# since he is encroaching on the bears is hyporcritical.

and i like bears.

I don't think anyone is saying that a hiker in Banff deserves to get mauled for just minding their own busy, enjoying the back country. But if the hiker does happen to encounter a bear, with cubs on the trail, chances are very good, that they will get attacked, and possibly killed.
Do I think that the bear should then be destroyed? No. The bear was just doing what any parent would do. Protect their young. You can't fault a bear for that.
If a bear is going out of its way to attack humans, then yes, I would consider that a problem bear, and would agree if the Rangers deemed it needed to be destroyed.

But there are risks associated with travelling in the back country. Running into a bear is one of them. [/b][/quote]
Isn't the reason because the bear has had a taste for human blood, and they don't want to risk the bear seeking out humans to hunt? That's the reason why they have to put it down I was told.

[Reaper]

Originally posted by troutman@Sep 8 2005, 01:52 PM
Ever walk a chicken or have one lay on the foot of your bed tending to you while you were sick?

No, but there are dogs that help the blind and police. Pigs that find truffles. Horses that pull loads.

I wasn't really going for the "animals that work" angle as much as I was going for the "companion animal" angle.

We eat chickens because we as humans don't socialize with them like we do with dogs.

It's the same as with cows. If people kept them in their houses as we do other domesticated animals we would probably never eat them.

[Devils'Advocate]

That would be one damn messy house.

[jonesy]

Originally posted by habernac@Sep 8 2005, 07:48 PM
to say some poor sot hiking in banff deserves it, since he is encroaching on the bears is hyporcritical.


No it isn't. It's their backyard. We're the trespassers.Take precautions. If you get hurt, the animal shouldn't have to pay for what comes naturally.

the point is, your house you live in right now used to be their back yard as well. We have been taking over 'their' backyard steadily.

Why should you be safe in your backyard? that used to be the domain of wolves, bears and coyotes, you are in THEIR backyard as you sit in your backyard.

unless you think it is ok because it has been your backyard for a long time so you have squatters rights now.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Reaper+Sep 8 2005, 02:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Reaper @ Sep 8 2005, 02:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-troutman@Sep 8 2005, 01:52 PM
Ever walk a chicken or have one lay on the foot of your bed tending to you while you were sick?

No, but there are dogs that help the blind and police. Pigs that find truffles. Horses that pull loads.

I wasn't really going for the "animals that work" angle as much as I was going for the "companion animal" angle.

We eat chickens because we as humans don't socialize with them like we do with dogs.

It's the same as with cows. If people kept them in their houses as we do other domesticated animals we would probably never eat them. [/b][/quote]
As nasty as it sounds, lots of people eat lots of dogs. I don't socialize with dogs, so is it okay that I eat one?

Not being a pet-person, I maybe can't appreciate it fully, but it is my learned opinion that people are considerably more valuable. Judging by the spay/neuter campaign and what goes on in animal shelters, I think the decision has already been made.

Anyone who would save their cat over another human being is, IMO, screwy in the head. How could you live the rest of your life knowing that you let a person die so you could have a few more years with a pet? Talk about selfish.

[habernac]

my house is not a National Park. A National Park is built to preserve nature areas. Grizzly bears are part of said nature area. When we are guests in THEIR home, we must take the precautions. And if you startle a bear and get attcked, is most certainly is not the fault of the bear.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by habernac@Sep 8 2005, 12:48 PM
to say some poor sot hiking in banff deserves it, since he is encroaching on the bears is hyporcritical.


No it isn't. It's their backyard. We're the trespassers.Take precautions. If you get hurt, the animal shouldn't have to pay for what comes naturally.

If a bear makes a move on me and if I have a gun, I won't hesitate to use it, no matter where it is. Since when is it his backyard? I don't mind sharing but have some animals lost their fear of humans with our out of touch idea of giving animals human characteristics?

[Cube Inmate]

Originally posted by jonesy@Sep 8 2005, 02:43 PM
Why should you be safe in your backyard? that used to be the domain of wolves, bears and coyotes, you are in THEIR backyard as you sit in your backyard.

Hey... see that fence around the backyard? And the network of 10s of kilometers of civilization all around us? That's called "taking precautions" against animals. If you abandon those precautions by going into the backcountry*, that's your choice. Doesn't make the rest of us hypocrites.

*or Fish Creek Park, as I found out last year. I ran right past a mom & cub black bear there and didn't see it...the guy following me a few seconds later did see it, and they were only a few feet from the path.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Vulcan@Sep 8 2005, 01:59 PM
If a bear makes a move on me and if I have a gun, I won't hesitate to use it, no matter where it is.

I think if you're bear hunting in a national park you're going to jail. I don't think you can even have a gun in a national park . . . .

If I remember right, there used to be stations at the park entrances requiring you to plug up said weapon.

I had a small black bear come out of the bush behind myself and my two Golden's a few weeks ago . . . . we were heading the other way and I happened to look back to see him about 50 feet in my rear. He turned a bit and sniffed the air. The next time I looked back, he was heading into the bush again. I kept walking and the dogs, who were dragging me along on their leashes, never saw him fortunately.

I didn't have a gun. I did have shorts filled with poop I could have thrown though.

Cowperson

[arsenal]

Originally posted by Vulcan@Sep 8 2005, 02:59 PM
If a bear makes a move on me and if I have a gun, I won't hesitate to use it, no matter where it is. Since when is it his backyard? I don't mind sharing but have some animals lost their fear of humans with our out of touch idea of giving animals human characteristics?

I think you have that backwards.
I think people have lost their fear of the outdoors, by us giving animals human characteristics.

Hey, if you have a gun, knife, hand grenade, what ever and you are attacked by a bear, you have a right to defend yourself. Just like if you get attacked by a person. There are even stipulations, that if someone attacks you, have have a right to defend yourself. And if the attacker dies, you can be found not at fault, as it was self defence.

What I don't agree with is going out and hunting down and killing the bear after the fact.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Cowperson+Sep 8 2005, 02:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cowperson @ Sep 8 2005, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Vulcan@Sep 8 2005, 01:59 PM
If a bear makes a move on me and if I have a gun, I won't hesitate to use it, no matter where it is.

I think if you're bear hunting in a national park you're going to jail. I don't think you can even have a gun in a national park . . . .

If I remember right, there used to be stations at the park entrances requiring you to plug up said weapon.

I had a small black bear come out of the bush behind myself and my two Golden's a few weeks ago . . . . we were heading the other way and I happened to look back to see him about 50 feet in my rear. He turned a bit and sniffed the air. The next time I looked back, he was heading into the bush again. I kept walking and the dogs, who were dragging me along on their leashes, never saw him fortunately.

I didn't have a gun. I did have shorts filled with poop I could have thrown though.

Cowperson [/b][/quote]
Actually I wouldn't go bear hunting anywhere or carry a rifle in a national park but I hopefully wouldn't hesitate to use it in self defense. Bear meat, I've been told, is best when the bear has been feeding on berries.

National parks, while having good intentions of preserving wild life[and I agree with this] is really not a natural environment unless you include man, and man is a hunter who has weapons. I'm an old man by most of your standards and I spent my early life living in place only to be gotten to by boat or plane on the edge of the woods. I roamed the beaches and the forest as a kid and never worried about animals attacking except one time when I confronted a cougar. Nowadays these animals have no fear of man and are moving into our territory for the easy pickings.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by arsenal+Sep 8 2005, 02:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (arsenal @ Sep 8 2005, 02:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Vulcan@Sep 8 2005, 02:59 PM
If a bear makes a move on me and if I have a gun, I won't hesitate to use it, no matter where it is. Since when is it his backyard? I don't mind sharing but have some animals lost their fear of humans with our out of touch idea of giving animals human characteristics?

I think you have that backwards.
I think people have lost their fear of the outdoors, by us giving animals human characteristics.
have a right to defend yourself. And if the attacker dies, you can be found not at fault, as it was self defence.
[/b][/quote]
Yes, I think your argument is valid too. A little common sense when going into unfamilar country, whether meeting four footed or two footed animals is a good idea.

[Patek23]

I love my dog too much, I would rescue her over anything excludng family members, it's a dog eat dog (pardon the pun) world out there and my family comes first to me, after that I'll worry about you, and that's just the way I see things.


As the hiker getting mauled theory, it's a risk you take. If a human kills a bear, and then all the other bears track down and kill the human? Humans are living breathing mammals no different than other animals, just because we became civilized doesn't mean we are better. Think if Raptors had survived the extinction than we would be the cows. Raptors are/were smarter than humans stronger and had more loyalty to each other, how would you feel if you were the "cow" chances are we wouldn't hae become as civilized and would have never even gotten enough time together to create means of communication.



Thats just like when white people bitch about all the "foreigners" coming and "taking over", and they are ignorant to remain completely oblivious to the fact that about 300 years ago we did the same thing to the natives!

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally posted by Flaming Homer@Sep 8 2005, 05:06 PM
I love my dog too much, I would rescue her over anything excludng family members, it's a dog eat dog (pardon the pun) world out there and my family comes first to me, after that I'll worry about you, and that's just the way I see things.

So what if someone else was put in a situation where they could either rescue their pet or they could rescue your mother or your sister - or anyone you care about. You wouldn't have any problem with them rescuing their pet and leaving your loved ones to die. Sorry but that is pretty messed up in my mind.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally posted by Flaming Homer@Sep 8 2005, 05:06 PM
Think if Raptors had survived the extinction than we would be the cows. Raptors are/were smarter than humans stronger and had more loyalty to each other, how would you feel if you were the "cow" chances are we wouldn't hae become as civilized and would have never even gotten enough time together to create means of communication.

Holy, boy...a little too much Jurassic Park for you!

[Patek23]

Originally posted by Cube Inmate+Sep 8 2005, 04:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cube Inmate @ Sep 8 2005, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Flaming Homer@Sep 8 2005, 05:06 PM
Think if Raptors had survived the extinction than we would be the cows. Raptors are/were smarter than humans stronger and had more loyalty to each other, how would you feel if you were the "cow" chances are we wouldn't hae become as civilized and would have never even gotten enough time together to create means of communication.

Holy, boy...a little too much Jurassic Park for you! [/b][/quote]
Please don't make me look up all the links, but there are many articles and written thoeries about how Raptors were smarter than humans.


I've never seen any of the Jurassic Parks either

[Shawnski]

Originally posted by Flaming Homer@Sep 8 2005, 05:45 PM
Please don't make me look up all the links, but there are many articles and written thoeries about how Raptors were smarter than humans.

Puleeeeease!!!

If Raptors were so smart, how did they end up in Toronto?

[moon]

Originally posted by Flaming Homer@Sep 8 2005, 04:45 PM

Please don't make me look up all the links, but there are many articles and written thoeries about how Raptors were smarter than humans.

Thats all they are is theories. No way anyone could say that Raptors were smarter than humans.



It would be pretty tough for me to choose to save an adult human life over my dogs. A baby is a completely different story but as for an adult that I do not know over my dogs, I really think I would choose my dogs.