Why the Bible is wrong, according to the Bible

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I WAS NOT indoctrinated and my grandparents and father were not, and still are not, christians. It would be more accurate to say that my father was not pleased in the slightest that I would go to church. Not only that when I decided earlier in my life to go away from my faith my mother had already done so. So to say I was surrounded by it at all times really isn't accurate. Instead I was surrounded by people who encouraged me to go drinking and to do what is "fun". Instead, like I said I just felt I was missing something and after a couple of years decided I wanted to go back to church from no one telling me I should.

So looking at the bolded part...your mother did indeed bring you to church as a young boy?

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by Cheese

So looking at the bolded part...your mother did indeed bring you to church as a young boy?

Sure she did. But that proves nothing. I had a lot more people around me even at that point (ie. All of my friends, my father, my brothers) that were not christians. I was not indoctrinated and you can think whatever you want, but don't continue to insult my intelligence.

I've had free choices throughout my life and the choice I've made are of my own free will. Your own problems with christianity are to deal with yourself but don't try to shove down my throat that I was indoctronated when you know NOTHING about me or my life.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

Sure she did. But that proves nothing. I had a lot more people around me even at that point (ie. All of my friends, my father, my brothers) that were not christians. I was not indoctrinated and you can think whatever you want, but don't continue to insult my intelligence.

I've had free choices throughout my life and the choice I've made are of my own free will. Your own problems with christianity are to deal with yourself but don't try to shove down my throat that I was indoctronated when you know NOTHING about me or my life.

No need to get angry...I wasn't being that way with you. Im simply asking questions.
You suggested that no one indoctrinated or introduced you to religion.
Your posts suggested that your mother did indeed bring you to her choice of theism, which means that your choice to decide was made for you at a young age. You felt comfortable with the blanket that religion provides.
Further, I do not have any problems with your choice of Christianity, nor have I tried stuffing atheism down your throat, I do however have issues with what it does and teaches to children.
The fact that I simply tried to suggest that as with anything, we should all take the time to study and learn everything we can about our supposed beliefs before we try to make our points public. We do not do anything different with our career choices, why do we give religion a pass?

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by Cheese

No need to get angry...I wasn't being that way with you. Im simply asking questions.

Well maybe you aren't getting defensive because I'm not attacking your choice to be athiest as I feel that you are attacking my CHOICE to be a Christian. Your not asking questions you're making unfounded statements.

Originally Posted by Cheese

You suggested that no one indoctrinated or introduced you to religion.

I never said no one introduced me to religion, I said that no on indoctrinated me. There is a difference.

Originally Posted by Cheese

Your posts suggested that your mother did indeed bring you to her choice of theism, which means that your choice to decide was made for you at a young age. You felt comfortable with the blanket that religion provides.

Wrong. I made a choice and no one made the choice for me. If you can't accept that, that's not my problem.

Originally Posted by Cheese

Further, I do not have any problems with your choice of Christianity, nor have I tried stuffing atheism down your throat, I do however have issues with what it does and teaches to children.

I never said that you were trying to stuff atheism down my throat but you are accusing me of being indoctrinated (by my mother), which I do take offense to. I don't appreciate being told that I didn't make my own choices and I really don't like some stranger telling me that my mother forced me to become a Christian. For the final time, you don't know ANYTHING about ME, so stop making such baseless claims. I have a problem with atheism and what it teaches children and I'm sure some people have problems with other things being taught to children. So based upon that logic I guess we shouldn't tell or teach children anything that any one person may have a problem with.

Originally Posted by Cheese

The fact that I simply tried to suggest that as with anything, we should all take the time to study and learn everything we can about our supposed beliefs before we try to make our points public. We do not do anything different with our career choices, why do we give religion a pass?

I'm not saying give religion a pass but don't try to presume the research that someone has done is insufficient just because they don't come to the same conclusion as you do. You chose to be athiest, that's your choice and I respect that. Why can't you accept that my CHOICE is to be a Christian?

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

First of all I have no respect for what T@T stands for. I think I make that very clear. It is a parasitical belief system. It derives all its energy from attacking other faiths.

Secondly, I was responding to a direct question he asked me. My post was hardly a drive by. He wanted to know what he doesn't understand.

LOL, because I don't believe in your make-believe friend you think I lack joy, peace and comfort? Let me clue you in my friend, If I died tomorrow I would die knowing I have/had all those things and more. You see I have lived my life to the fullest and didn't waste my time on fairytales, instead of giving my hard earned money to a collection plate so the pope,bishops and their buddy's can live like royalty I give to charity's that actually need it, from Kids sport,cancer foundation to friends and family in need.

Funny how religion brainwashes people into thinking non-believers are bad people and don't have a full life! You sir are the one he hasn't lived, you worship a book that was written by human beings solely for the purpose to control other people. Talk a parasitical belief system.

How many times in other threads have I and others called you out on your drive-by fairytale posts like Jonah living in a whale, Noah's flood..etc only to get a snub and say: I don't waste my time with you people"

I truly do hope your happy and if I could pray I would pray that you always stay that way and don't "snap" someday when things go wrong, we have all seen that story far too many times.

[photon]

Rockin' Flames don't get upset because you are using the word differently than what someone else intended..

Indoctrinated doesn't mean forced, it doesn't mean brainwashed.. it means someone making choices but their choices are a reflection of of the options available and the influences of those around them.

We're ALL indoctrinated in many ways, some of that is positive (i.e. indoctrinated into social normals, values, morals, etc), so don't see indoctrinated as synonymous with brainwashing.

So much of our culture is influenced by Christianity, no one who lives in our culture isn't indoctrinated in it to some degree.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by photon

Rockin' Flames don't get upset because you are using the word differently than what someone else intended..

Indoctrinated doesn't mean forced, it doesn't mean brainwashed.. it means someone making choices but their choices are a reflection of of the options available and the influences of those around them.

We're ALL indoctrinated in many ways, some of that is positive (i.e. indoctrinated into social normals, values, morals, etc), so don't see indoctrinated as synonymous with brainwashing.

So much of our culture is influenced by Christianity, no one who lives in our culture isn't indoctrinated in it to some degree.

I think I got the idea of what Cheese meant when he said the following:

Originally Posted by Cheese

... which means that your choice to decide was made for you at a young age.

That post pretty much implies...no states, I didn't make my own choice. So Cheese's interpretation certainly seems to be synonomus with brainwashing.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by photon

Rockin' Flames don't get upset because you are using the word differently than what someone else intended..

Indoctrinated doesn't mean forced, it doesn't mean brainwashed.. it means someone making choices but their choices are a reflection of of the options available and the influences of those around them.

We're ALL indoctrinated in many ways, some of that is positive (i.e. indoctrinated into social normals, values, morals, etc), so don't see indoctrinated as synonymous with brainwashing.

So much of our culture is influenced by Christianity, no one who lives in our culture isn't indoctrinated in it to some degree.

oh yeah? try Buddhism! No indoctrination! You go to temple if you want to. You follow scripts and teachings if you want to. You worships ancenstors if you want to. Don't like Buddhist holidays? That's ok too! If you do none of these things what's the punishment? Nothing? There are no sins and you're not guilted into confessions.

You just have to worship a big fat smiling dude who doesn't really care what you do!



SEE? So peaceful! The best religion by a country mile!

[Stimpy]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Well for starters your posts betray little understanding of the christian faith in general let along its various sects. You also like to take little drive-by shots at posters such as myself which only makes you appear shallow and juvenile. You add very little to any conversation.

Also, your belief system by all accounts is most miserable. It lacks joy, peace and comfort. Your only hope is that when you take your last breath that you will never feel or know anything again. Even your hope lacks promise but, rather is one of refuge from far worse fates.

As a Christian I have strong and yes negative opinions concerning the beliefs of Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and the million or so other religions around the world. I also have strong negative opinions of various christian sects who have left orthodox Christian doctrine to embrace heresies or some compromised gospel. I fully embrace my intolerance because I know that the alternative is to embrace others beliefs at the expense of fidelity to my own.

Having said that I have never been compelled to hurt someone because of their offensive beliefs; Nor have I ever tried to silence someone of another faith. You see the center of my belief system is the Gospel which promises an immediate and eternal mending of a previously broken relationship with the Creator. Gospel means "Good News". That positive exists at the core of my religion. A place where all other belief systems have no voice. We don't go to church on Sunday for the purpose of ripping holes in other belief systems. You frankly aren't on the radar. Sure other beliefs are discussed at times when we are looking at contrasts or warning of heresies but, that isn't our focus. Our focus is that new relationship and the promises attached to that.

Your belief system unlike mine is a dark one. At its core there is only contempt for other belief systems. It is negative. You can argue this point all you want but, I've been listening to your guys dribble for a few years now and frankly it is not only at its core but, is the whole apple. You've got nothing else. The reason why you atheist go out of your way to start these endless threads is that is the whole expression of your religion. Your not trying to help anybody because if that was the case you would be approaching people as a friend. No all you are doing is expressing the contempt you feel in side. I can see it in your posts and in how you all like to dog pile on whatever faith is on the menu that day.

Your rewards make up a very brief finale paragraphed. You on rare occasion might get the satisfaction of pulling someone else down into the mire in which you reside. Beyond that you get a smug pride from believing that you are on the winning side of the argument. Little do you know that pride goeth before a fall and great pride before a great fall.

What a great summary of the contradiction that is a fundamentalist Christian. A post filled with nuanced contradiction and hatred. Brilliant work CalgaryBorn.

My favorite was when you said, "Your belief system unlike mine is a dark one. At its core there is only contempt for other belief systems." Yet earlier you said, "as a Christian I have strong and yes negative opinions concerning the beliefs of Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and the million or so other religions around the world," and "...the core of my religion. A place where all other belief systems have no voice." Doesn't sound like your religion, or interpretation of religion, is dark or displays any contempt for any other belief systems!

You really nailed the problem with religion when you said, "I fully embrace my intolerance because I know that the alternative is to embrace others beliefs at the expense of fidelity to my own." Intolerance and refusal to consider the other perspective is the problem with modern religion. If we spent more time actually listening to the other person's position, and found the commonalities that exist, we would all come away understanding each other that much more. Because people instead choose to follow only their book, in effect practicing epistemic closure, we are pushed farther apart rather than being drawn together. You have displayed all that is wrong with religion in one absurdly ignorant post. Bravo!

[Stimpy]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I said that no on indoctrinated me.

An honest question. Did you serve in the United States military?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I think I got the idea of what Cheese meant when he said the following:



That post pretty much implies...no states, I didn't make my own choice. So Cheese's interpretation certainly seems to be synonomus with brainwashing.

IF anyone's parents,or grandparents for that matter, take a young child to church, that implies that the decision is made for that child.
IF however a child is given the opportunity to explore everything themselves without a parent telling them that this choice is "what they should do" it is highly unlikely that that child would select the religion of choice. Call it what you want, just trying to prove a point.

A child born in Afghanistan is likely a Muslim.
A child in Texas is a Christian
A child in Asia is likely a Buddhist

That has nothing to do with the choice of the child.

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by Cheese

IF anyone's parents,or grandparents for that matter, take a young child to church, that implies that the decision is made for that child.
IF however a child is given the opportunity to explore everything themselves without a parent telling them that this choice is "what they should do" it is highly unlikely that that child would select the religion of choice. Call it what you want, just trying to prove a point.

A child born in Afghanistan is likely a Muslim.
A child in Texas is a Christian
A child in Asia is likely a Buddhist

That has nothing to do with the choice of the child.

So does that mean I have to find someone to babysit my little kid while I go to service on Sunday? Naturally a child is going to be integrated into the parent's lifestyle to some degree, where it is important is that as they age and mature they have the freedom to explore other options whether it be a different religion, way to express spirituality, become athiest, etc.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by Stimpy

An honest question. Did you serve in the United States military?

No, I just moved to the US from Canada just over 1 year ago

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Finny61

So does that mean I have to find someone to babysit my little kid while I go to service on Sunday? Naturally a child is going to be integrated into the parent's lifestyle to some degree, where it is important is that as they age and mature they have the freedom to explore other options whether it be a different religion, way to express spirituality, become athiest, etc.

It just means you're indoctrinating them, that's all. It makes sense, though. You think you have a path to eternal happiness or whatever heaven is and you want your kid to have that, too.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Finny61

So does that mean I have to find someone to babysit my little kid while I go to service on Sunday? Naturally a child is going to be integrated into the parent's lifestyle to some degree, where it is important is that as they age and mature they have the freedom to explore other options whether it be a different religion, way to express spirituality, become athiest, etc.

Do you take your child to a Buddhist temple?
How about a Synagogue?
What about many of the different Christian denominations, Mormons, JWs etc?

If and when you took your child to these institutions would you let them know they were free to go to this system regularly? If they chose different then you would you accompany them?

What Im saying is.."most" parents and grandparents indoctrinate their children into the religion of their choice. The child has no choice or voice of their own.

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Do you take your child to a Buddhist temple?
How about a Synagogue?
What about many of the different Christian denominations, Mormons, JWs etc?

If and when you took your child to these institutions would you let them know they were free to go to this system regularly? If they chose different then you would you accompany them?

What Im saying is.."most" parents and grandparents indoctrinate their children into the religion of their choice. The child has no choice or voice of their own.

But what happens when the kid actually becomes a teenager? they do what all adolescents do, they test the boundaries of their thinking. Some will certainly stick to what they were raised on, some will not. Decisions have to be made for kids (all facets of life) and it is parents doing so in their best interest or what they feel is, it's inevitable. To me I see it as more of a natural parental mechanism then just indoctrination.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by Cheese

IF anyone's parents,or grandparents for that matter, take a young child to church, that implies that the decision is made for that child.
IF however a child is given the opportunity to explore everything themselves without a parent telling them that this choice is "what they should do" it is highly unlikely that that child would select the religion of choice. Call it what you want, just trying to prove a point.

A child born in Afghanistan is likely a Muslim.
A child in Texas is a Christian
A child in Asia is likely a Buddhist

That has nothing to do with the choice of the child.

So then a child that is the son or daughter of an athiest has no choice but to be an athiest since the parents will not expose them to any religion but will be told that there isn't a god. Therefore the choice is made for those children.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the fact that children's choices are made for them just based upon what they are exposed to. I won't disagree that there is an influence but the choice a child makes will ultimately be the childs choice not the parents.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Finny61

So does that mean I have to find someone to babysit my little kid while I go to service on Sunday? Naturally a child is going to be integrated into the parent's lifestyle to some degree, where it is important is that as they age and mature they have the freedom to explore other options whether it be a different religion, way to express spirituality, become athiest, etc.

I don't think so, I intend to expose my kid to all kinds of religions, and I know atheists that intentionally send their kids to religious schools to increase exposure.

As you say, it's more about giving them the freedom to explore, encouraging questions and investigation and discovery.. we're parents, stewards of kids until they can take care of themselves, not owners.

Some families aren't like that, they have everything tightly controlled to ensure minimal contradictory information ever reaches the child, overt indoctrination.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

So then a child that is the son or daughter of an athiest has no choice but to be an athiest since the parents will not expose them to any religion but will be told that there isn't a god. Therefore the choice is made for those children.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the fact that children's choices are made for them just based upon what they are exposed to. I won't disagree that there is an influence but the choice a child makes will ultimately be the childs choice not the parents.

atheism is not religion. It has no boundaries and can mean different things to different people.
My kids have the absolute right to make any choice they want as long as it doesn't hurt others. They have gone to various churches and I have accompanied them, if they wanted. They have asked questions about each one and we have found the answers to those questions together, honestly and openly.
This is an absolute 180 from most Christian families. Id assume the same for all other religions as well.

[troutman]

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-008-...1/9181-eng.htm

The degree of religiosity expressed by Canadians is associated with the religious background of their parents. Of those who say that neither of their parents had a religion, 85% have a low degree of religiosity and 10% have a high degree. In contrast, of those who say that both of their parents had similar religious backgrounds, 32% have a low degree of religiosity and 33% have a high degree. This is consistent with other studies that show religious parents are most likely to pass their religion on to their children and this occurs most often when both parents have similar religious backgrounds.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=272042

About 2/3rds stay with the religion in which they were raised. ("Counting Flocks and Lost Sheep: Trends in Religious Preference Since World War II"By Tom W. Smith, Univerity of Chicago)

Survey studies show that the great majority of Americans raised in
particular denomination remain members after they become adults. But
of persons who report that the religious affiliation of their parents
was "none," less than 40 percent remained without a religious
affiliation when they grew up. Thus, the majority of offspring of
"nones" convert to some religion (Kluegel, 1980).