CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[MarkGio]

I take my kids to the library every weekend so that can pick out new bed time stories for the week. Libraries are also a good source to rent movies, in a society where movies cannot be rented in a conventional, in-store manner. Libraries also provide monthly subscriptions to magazines, as well as internet and resources for students, those trying to find work, and those trying to learn English as a second language.

When I was in university I would tutor and get tutored at libraries. They provide workshops, places for stay-at-home parents to take their kids somewhere to play and do activities, as well as provide parents who are in need of supervised rights a place to spend time with their kids. I believe you can rent music and video games as well, so teachers also rent these things for their classes.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Libraries are arguably as much a waste of civic money as stadiums. Nowadays it's basically a place for students to loiter. Library building made sense 25 years ago when books were the main source for information. Now it's a place for people to hang out inside that isn't a mall or a starbucks.

I think the two entities serve two different classes. A library serves largely the lower class from my observations, whereas the stadium serves largely the upper class.

Which class do you think is larger?

[Funkhouser]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Libraries are arguably as much a waste of civic money as stadiums. Nowadays it's basically a place for students to loiter. Library building made sense 25 years ago when books were the main source for information. Now it's a place for people to hang out inside that isn't a mall or a starbucks.

Libraries democratize knowledge.

Libraries enable citizens to become engaged in their community, providing them with a foundation for knowledge and learning

The fact that this needs to be even discussed in this day and age is sad

I love the Flames, I spend hours a week watching them, but let's not pretend that watching a sport team is more important than the fundamentals in life: knowledge, relationships, community, health...

[Thunderball]

No doubt that libraries (even with the declining use of hard copy books and literature) are an important public good, but when you are talking about a massive $200-250m library located within about 10 minutes from two other libraries, it loses its appearance as a public good and starts to look like a vanity project. I'd argue same goes for the NMC.

Once a public good becomes a vanity project, comparisons to arenas, stadiums and fieldhouses become far less ridiculous. Most arguments in favour of the extravagance of the library and NMC (encourage development, encourage activity, etc.) are the same arguments with CalgaryNEXT. Difference is, CalgaryNEXT will actually produce revenue, even for all levels of government (ticket tax, sales tax, etc.). Downside for CalgaryNEXT (aside from poor presentation and marketing) is that only the fieldhouse will provide (semi) consistent public good for the low to low-mid class person.

[troutman]

How is NMC a vanity project?

In purely economic terms it is good for the city. Sled Island brought in $3 M in economic activity in just 4 days last year. Imagine what NMC can do with the Junos and events throughout the year.

The intangible benefits are even greater. 2016 has been declared the Year of Music in Calgary.

How it was funded:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/enterta...981/story.html

$25 M each from three levels of government. NMC raised a slightly larger amount itself to make it happen.

Bell is a sponsor for 12 years at $10 M.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by Cappy

450 Million would be a steal for a of a deal for an arena. Unfortunately the actual cost of the arena by itself is probably around 600 million.

Edmonton is building a Cadillac project for $480M, and that is the best comparable for Calgary given similarities in construction costs. If you have any better sources for an estimate, please share.

Originally Posted by troutman

How is NMC a vanity project?

In purely economic terms it is good for the city. Sled Island brought in $3 M in economic activity in just 4 days last year. Imagine what NMC can do with the Junos and events throughout the year.

That's great, but these are the same arguments that are being rejected by arena detractors. The thinking is that those disposable dollars would simply be spent elsewhere and that the existence of the facility simply alters entertainment spending.

For the record, I am in full support of the NMC. The facility will be a fantastic addition to the city and the organization behind it is top notch. It will prove to be a great cultural amenity, much like a new arena/stadium complex.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Zarley

That's great, but these are the same arguments that are being rejected by arena detractors. The thinking is that those disposable dollars would simply be spent elsewhere and that the existence of the facility simply alters entertainment spending.

I agree with that to a certain extent, but I would counter that a good part of that $ was out-of-town visitors. That is not local disposable $.

Also, the cost of NMC to taxpayers was not that substantial (relatively). NMC raised over 50%.

[calgaryrocks]

^ yea, I would be fine with each level of government putting $25 Mil towards CalgaryNext, but not hundreds of millions

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

^ yea, I would be fine with each level of government putting $25 Mil towards CalgaryNext, but not hundreds of millions

I, for one, would be strongly in favour of the federal government throwing 'hundreds of millions' into the project (or any project in our fair city)

[Erick Estrada]

All anyone has to do is take a step back and look at this website. Take a look at the thousands of accounts, hours on end daily, 365 days a year discussing the team, etc. How can anyone say the Flames aren't a fundamental part of thousands of Albertans everyday lives? This forum is proof.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by troutman

I agree with that to a certain extent, but I would counter that a good part of that $ was out-of-town visitors. That is not local disposable $.

Very true, this is also the case with sporting facilities. There is also the fact that improved local cultural amenities will capture disposable income that would otherwise be spent by Calgarians outside the city.

Originally Posted by troutman

Also, the cost of NMC to taxpayers was not that substantial (relatively). NMC raised over 50%.

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

^ yea, I would be fine with each level of government putting $25 Mil towards CalgaryNext, but not hundreds of millions

Relative to the size of each project, the public component of NMC at 50% is similar to what is proposed for Calgary Next (49%).

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

All anyone has to do is take a step back and look at this website. Take a look at the thousands of accounts, hours on end daily, 365 days a year discussing the team, etc. How can anyone say the Flames aren't a fundamental part of thousands of Albertans everyday lives? This forum is proof.

hahaha,

There are less registered posters on this board than it would take to fill the dome.

If there were 3 times as many readers as posters, you'd be talking roughly 50 000 people out of Calgary's population.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

All anyone has to do is take a step back and look at this website. Take a look at the thousands of accounts, hours on end daily, 365 days a year discussing the team, etc. How can anyone say the Flames aren't a fundamental part of thousands of Albertans everyday lives? This forum is proof.

And 60% of the posters feel this proposal/funding is crap!

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

No doubt that libraries (even with the declining use of hard copy books and literature) are an important public good, but when you are talking about a massive $200-250m library located within about 10 minutes from two other libraries, it loses its appearance as a public good and starts to look like a vanity project. I'd argue same goes for the NMC.

Once a public good becomes a vanity project, comparisons to arenas, stadiums and fieldhouses become far less ridiculous. Most arguments in favour of the extravagance of the library and NMC (encourage development, encourage activity, etc.) are the same arguments with CalgaryNEXT. Difference is, CalgaryNEXT will actually produce revenue, even for all levels of government (ticket tax, sales tax, etc.). Downside for CalgaryNEXT (aside from poor presentation and marketing) is that only the fieldhouse will provide (semi) consistent public good for the low to low-mid class person.

How much does it cost me to use the library, or NMC?

where are those fees going?

How much does it cost for me to go to a Flames game? Where do those fees go?

The city can spend 200 million on the Fieldhouse and put it wherever they want. they don't have to share it with anyone. The Flames arent giving them a deal on it, so why build it the way the Flames want it.

[Cappy]

[QUOTE=Zarley;5614222]Edmonton is building a Cadillac project for $480M, and that is the best comparable for Calgary given similarities in construction costs. If you have any better sources for an estimate, please share.

So why do they need 800 million for it?

The field house, according to them, is 200 million?

Given the amount spent on recent CFL stadiums, and the cadillac arena in edmonton, 600 million would get it done for both arena and stadium.

[Enoch Root]

[QUOTE=Cappy;5614563]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Edmonton is building a Cadillac project for $480M, and that is the best comparable for Calgary given similarities in construction costs. If you have any better sources for an estimate, please share.

So why do they need 800 million for it?

The field house, according to them, is 200 million?

Given the amount spent on recent CFL stadiums, and the cadillac arena in edmonton, 600 million would get it done for both arena and stadium.

Let's try to keep it real

[harmony]

just yet another scam by the rich to steal money from the city to get even richer... when will this madness be stopped?

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Cappy

The city can spend 200 million on the Field house and put it wherever they want. they don't have to share it with anyone. The Flames arent giving them a deal on it, so why build it the way the Flames want it.

I would imagine a field house within a $800 million dollar facility will have access to much greater resources, personnel and amenities.

$200M towards a stand alone field house would be very much less awesome to play/train in by the general public and amateur atheltes.

[Cappy]

[QUOTE=Enoch Root;5614802]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Let's try to keep it real

Sorry.

total cost of the project is $890,000,000.

So why do they need 890 million?

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by RM14

I would imagine a field house within a $800 million dollar facility will have access to much greater resources, personnel and amenities.

$200M towards a stand alone field house would be very much less awesome to play/train in by the general public and amateur atheltes.

What sort of access? the same access that we get to the Saddledome on a regular basis? The same access we get to McMahon?