CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I would hazard a guess that the Dome sees 150-250000 unique visitors each year (and I would guess that maybe 40% of those attend 2 or fewer events). There could be around 1 million people in the metro area that don't set foot in the building on an annual basis.

It would be really interesting to see any actual metrics on this, but I reckon the Flames are the only ones that would have anything resembling this info, and it doesn't exactly favour them in this discussion.

I would like to see a poll about the 1 million people who don't set foot in the the new library building and how they like their money being spent on it ? Or how about the 1 million people who never set foot inside the Bow Building downtown, which is actually paid for by EnCana/Cenovus, that is the leading reason for the East Village CRL? The difference between these 3 is the proposed development around the new facility and the increase in taxes from these developments. The CRL access to funding is leveraging the cities ability to borrow money with the funds to be paid back out of the ticket taxes. When people throw out $450 million ($200 million is actually for the field house portion that the city has identified as a priority that hasn't been funded yet) from the city they are purposely inflating the costs. The proposal could be cut by $200 million tomorrow if they removed the field house portion.

[bagofpucks]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I'd actually be curious to see what the results of a seperate poll with only City of Calgary property tax payers would say. As far as I'm concerned they're the only people who matter

We joke about this a lot in our household. I was dead set against this project when we lived in Calgary. Now that we aren't city of Calgary tax payers and our household would likely benefit greatly during the construction phase of the project I say build away! Only $1 billion? Why not make it $2 billion! Start tomorrow if you want! (Last part of paragraph written with tongue firmly in cheek)

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I'd actually be curious to see what the results of a seperate poll with only City of Calgary property tax payers would say. As far as I'm concerned they're the only people who matter

By "people" you mean the REITs, Property Management corporations and Asset Management corporations that pay the majority of the property taxes in the city?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

I would like to see a poll about the 1 million people who don't set foot in the the new library building and how they like their money being spent on it ?

2012 Numbers:
Percentage of households that utilize the Calgary Public Library: 66%
Number of Calgarians who hold a library card: 393,430

Source: Wikipedia

2013 statement: Calgary’s public libraries continue to see rapid growth, with total in-person visits edging up seven per cent last year to exceed 5.724 million, according to a new report.

Source



Also, education & literacy > hockey & concerts (at least from a societal standpoint).

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

2012 Numbers:
Percentage of households that utilize the Calgary Public Library: 66%
Number of Calgarians who hold a library card: 393,430

Source: Wikipedia



Source



Also, education & literacy > hockey & concerts (at least from a societal standpoint).

Good numbers, thanks. Last comment isn't needed as that is your opinion. Education & literacy are the job of the school system, so add that cost into the library if you want to compare total costs.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

2012 Numbers:
Percentage of households that utilize the Calgary Public Library: 66%
Number of Calgarians who hold a library card: 393,430

Source: Wikipedia



Source



Also, education & literacy > hockey & concerts (at least from a societal standpoint).

Thanks for these numbers.

As for the discussion though, they are very vague, and also have a low threshold: what constitutes a household's usage? Someone visited the library? (that would be my guess)

So to apply a similar test would be to say: what percentage of Calgary households had a member visit the Saddledome last year? (and I would imagine that percentage is fairly high as well)

And that doesn't account for visitors to the city who attend the Saddledome - they are imporatant too, as they bring in tourist dollars, visit restaurants, hotels, etc.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Good numbers, thanks. Last comment isn't needed as that is your opinion. Education & literacy are the job of the school system, so add that cost into the library if you want to compare total costs.

I don't really get what you're saying here. Of course it's my opinion, as it is my opinion that saying education and literacy is the job of the school system is really, really narrow. What about anybody over the age of 18 not in a post-secondary? Should they have no opportunity to continue to learn? How about programs at the library that may help some of the poorest, most vulnerable youth? It's a fine edge, but take every library out of the city and there would be a lot of kids with nothing better to do, and more likely to succumb to negative influences.

I'd love to hear an argument of why entertainment > education and literacy. If you want to talk about economic benefit that's fine, but investing in education beyond K-12 can help people become more employable. The library can play a big role in social mobility. You see great diversity at any library in town.

There are also no barriers to accessing the library (if cards aren't free yet, I believe they will be soon). Just because you don't use the library doesn't mean you can't. The vast majority of the population can't access the local sports arena/stadium.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Thanks for these numbers.

As for the discussion though, they are very vague, and also have a low threshold: what constitutes a household's usage? Someone visited the library? (that would be my guess)

So to apply a similar test would be to say: what percentage of Calgary households had a member visit the Saddledome last year? (and I would imagine that percentage is fairly high as well)

And that doesn't account for visitors to the city who attend the Saddledome - they are imporatant too, as they bring in tourist dollars, visit restaurants, hotels, etc.

Of course the numbers are vague, but they are far more substantial than any data we have on our arena/stadium usage (I'd love to see it if it's out there). I'd be surprised if more than 33% of households had a member visit the Saddledome more than once in the last five years.

I think comparing expenditure on the new library (or bike lanes for that matter) to the arena project is ridiculous, but others seem to be arguing that the arena would be a more appropriate use of public funds. I don't think it should be an either/or scenario (and it isn't), but if it was I'd choose a library every single time.

[Tinordi]

Libraries are a public good, hockey teams are not.

One is not viable as a private business, the other one is.

One needs substantial public funding, the other does not.

The fact that we're even having this conversation is just depressing. I would hope we'd have some more civic virtue to invest in literacy, culture, and learning with our scarce public dollars than to subsidize a near half a billion dollar profitable business so that we can dry our hands with greater ease.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Libraries are a public good, hockey teams are not.

One is not viable as a private business, the other one is.

One needs substantial public funding, the other does not.

The fact that we're even having this conversation is just depressing. I would hope we'd have some more civic virtue to invest in literacy, culture, and learning with our scarce public dollars than to subsidize a near half a billion dollar profitable business so that we can dry our hands with greater ease.

As a person who hasn't used the library in years, and will use the saddledome 3-6 times a year, it boggles my mind how anyone could say that the saddle-dome is on par as a need for public funding with the library.

Throw in the library's increase usage rates, its not even a discussion anymore.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

As a rent payer whose rent is impacted by property tax - I strongly disagree.

Oh ya- I also vote for the council people who will approve or disprove the arena.

The whole argument that property taxpayers should get more say in civic matters then non-property owning citizens gets bored and old quick.

If I own 1000 apartment units, should I get 1000 votes?

I mean, I suppose the property tax rate slightly effects what you pay in rent but it's definitely not the largest factor. You don't actually pay property tax, and people who own property are on 15+ year mortgages and you sign one year leases.

I would just take peoples militant stances on "NO PUBLIC MONEY AT ALL EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES" more seriously if they were actually tax payers. Obiously everyone over 18 should be able to vote in municipal elections, I just respect the opinion of tax payers more in matters of what the city should do from funds largely gleaned from property tax.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I mean, I suppose the property tax rate slightly effects what you pay in rent but it's definitely not the largest factor. You don't actually pay property tax, and people who own property are on 15+ year mortgages and you sign one year leases.

I would just take peoples militant stances on "NO PUBLIC MONEY AT ALL EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES" more seriously if they were actually tax payers. Obiously everyone over 18 should be able to vote in municipal elections, I just respect the opinion of tax payers more in matters of what the city should do from funds largely gleaned from property tax.

Then shouldn't those who pay more property tax matter even more? Why should the guy paying property tax on a $400,000 residential property's opinion matter as much as the conglomerate that is paying property tax on a $1.2B commercial property?

[Vulcan]

So Trudeau has promised Alberta $700M for infrastructure spending. Could some be used to clean up the toxic waste and reroute the highways around the chosen site.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2...ys-notley.html

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I mean, I suppose the property tax rate slightly effects what you pay in rent but it's definitely not the largest factor. You don't actually pay property tax, and people who own property are on 15+ year mortgages and you sign one year leases.

I would just take peoples militant stances on "NO PUBLIC MONEY AT ALL EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES" more seriously if they were actually tax payers. Obiously everyone over 18 should be able to vote in municipal elections, I just respect the opinion of tax payers more in matters of what the city should do from funds largely gleaned from property tax.

This is false. All residents in Calgary pay property tax whether you own or rent. The tax incidence of property taxes in the long-run is on the residents of the property regardless of ownership.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I mean, I suppose the property tax rate slightly effects what you pay in rent but it's definitely not the largest factor. You don't actually pay property tax, and people who own property are on 15+ year mortgages and you sign one year leases.

Property taxes affect the bottom line no matter what you live in and whether you own it or not. Renters do actually pay it. Everyone with a roof over their head is actually a taxpayer one way or another.

Unless of course there's some secret landlord condition where they've all said "let's pretend that we don't pay property taxes on our rental units, and adjust the rents down accordingly. That cost is on us and us alone!"

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Libraries are a public good, hockey teams are not.

One is not viable as a private business, the other one is.

One needs substantial public funding, the other does not.

The fact that we're even having this conversation is just depressing. I would hope we'd have some more civic virtue to invest in literacy, culture, and learning with our scarce public dollars than to subsidize a near half a billion dollar profitable business so that we can dry our hands with greater ease.

You're trying too hard.

First of all, no one argued that an arena is an equivalent public good to a library (someone merely asked about attendance/usage, and others discussed that).

Second, while it is obvious that investing in culture and learning is vital and at or near the top of the list of civic desires, that does not dismiss investing in other things that also have (lesser) civic benefit. Dog parks do nothing for me (or the vast majority of citizens), but they have their place. The Peace bridge doesn't make me a better person, but it is a part of our city. An arena is not as important as a library, obviously, but it is a part of the fabric of a city. To dismiss it entirely is almost as ridiculous as the false argument you attempted to make.

Third, the project, as it stands, includes a stadium and a field house - the public benefits of which, I would hope are self-evident.

Finally, your silly passive-aggressive attempts to insult anyone that takes a stance in any way contrary to yours, are laughable.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Are you talking about the arena or stadium?

By contributing $450 million, the Flames are essentially paying for the arena portion of the project. They could easily build a standalone arena at that cost.

The wrinkle is the need for a new stadium. The financials for a privately funded stadium do not work in Canada and a new venue is going to require public funding regardless of whether it's combined with an arena or not. McMahon has served us well but has reached the end of its economic life and a new stadium is needed more than a hockey arena right now. The proposal as it stands offers a way to reduce costs while providing additional public benefit via the fieldhouse. It's really the case of a good concept with poor presentation. I think that you'll see greater public support for the project once this populist outrage dies down and we see more concrete plans for the site

450 Million would be a steal for a of a deal for an arena. Unfortunately the actual cost of the arena by itself is probably around 600 million.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Good numbers, thanks. Last comment isn't needed as that is your opinion. Education & literacy are the job of the school system, so add that cost into the library if you want to compare total costs.

HAHA

No seriously, continued education is a very important to society. I'm sure a lot of things have changed since most of us left school.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Libraries are a public good, hockey teams are not.

One is not viable as a private business, the other one is.

One needs substantial public funding, the other does not.

The fact that we're even having this conversation is just depressing. I would hope we'd have some more civic virtue to invest in literacy, culture, and learning with our scarce public dollars than to subsidize a near half a billion dollar profitable business so that we can dry our hands with greater ease.

Originally Posted by Kavvy

As a person who hasn't used the library in years, and will use the saddledome 3-6 times a year, it boggles my mind how anyone could say that the saddle-dome is on par as a need for public funding with the library.

Throw in the library's increase usage rates, its not even a discussion anymore.

I'm not sure you're responding to the post you quoted.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I'm not sure you're responding to the post you quoted.

ha I get how anyone could think that, but I was agreeing with him - expanding on his thought.

Terrible grammar and word flow is confusing I guess.

[burn_this_city]

Libraries are arguably as much a waste of civic money as stadiums. Nowadays it's basically a place for students to loiter. Library building made sense 25 years ago when books were the main source for information. Now it's a place for people to hang out inside that isn't a mall or a starbucks.