CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[GioforPM]

Should Nenshi have met with Bettman - arguable. There are points on both sides. Sure there may be nothing new, but Bettman might have a different take on the existing facts which Nenshi may not have thought of. Or maybe it's just polite and good politics to meet. Now, if he doesn't have time, fine, that's on Bettman for not scheduling.

But the communication style was inappropriate. And I don't dislike Nenshi at all - would probably have voted for him if I lived within the city limits. And then Nenshi doubled down by getting into a stupid twitter fight with a former radio morning DJ and current hockey "analyst" (term used loosely).

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

Why wouldn't they act like that though? Obviously they will try and milk whatever they can out of the city, and you can't fault them for it. It's just the starting point in the negotiations, Flames ask for the world then the city comes back and says you get nothing, then the Flames will counter and so on. That's why I don't know why a lot of people are getting upset about rich people looking for a hand out, or people complaining the city isn't willing to contribute.

I just don't understand the way the Flames went about it. Come in with a half baked proposal, because you can't actually negotiate or move forward until the land study is done. They should have just stopped planning anything until the spring when the cost of the clean up was known.

I don't think they should act like that. Doing the city a favor by making them pay for at least half. The city has supported the team very well since 2004.
Opening proposal doesn't always have to be an extreme milking job. And if it was, it's been 5 months? Is there going to be another proposal or will they keep stongarming this one meaning it's not the start of negotiations, it's the final deal.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I don't think they should act like that. Doing the city a favor by making them pay for at least half. The city has supported the team very well since 2004.
Opening proposal doesn't always have to be an extreme milking job. And if it was, it's been 5 months? Is there going to be another proposal or will they keep stongarming this one meaning it's not the start of negotiations, it's the final deal.

You're not going to see any negotiating or updates until the land study is done. Once that first domino falls either the project is dead in the water, or it will start the discussions.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

No he doesn't. And he doesn't have any obligation to the Canadian Tourism Board, the Alberta 55 Plus Summer Games, the Medicine Hat Chamber of Commerce, the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the Dairy Board, the Manitoba Association of Municipalities, or any of the other of the dozens of groups he meets with on a weekly basis as a glad-handing, stetson-giving representative of the city. But he does it anyway, because it's his job.

Do you know what all these groups have in common?

They make an appointment with a busy Mayor before coming to town. They did't expect that they could roll into town expecting the Mayor to alter his schedule and to roll out the red carpet for them.

(I assume they hadn't done this because obviously they would have been given the message they received today: "If we have something new to talk about, let's meet, otherwise there's no point")

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

I posted it in the other thread, but what bothers me is the way he handled it. You can't really argue with him in that what is the point of the meeting, since there is no new info. But really instead of putting out a snarky release he could have just said that the city isn't prepared to discuss the project until the report on the land clean up comes in.

Honestly the city has to work with the Flames on this regardless of how much they are willing to chip in.

So changing gears....

How would everyone feel if the report came back and it was 50 million-ish to clean the site and the city offered to do the clean up, give them the land, and do some re-routing of roads? Flames are on the hook for the building(s), the ball is in their court if they want to build just a rink or a rink and football stadium.

Sounds good to me. With Bow Trail realigned or (better yet) rebuilt underground, the site can be developed to ensure it generates substantial property tax revenue. The Flames just dropped their facility in the middle of the site and didn't bother to consider the sites revenue generating capabilities.

I'd even throw in the $200 million for the Field House but I'd expect it to be tailored for amateur athletes first with the Flames kicking in funds to provide the Stamps with the seating and other training facilities they need. This has to be an amateur athlete facility, not a training centre for the Stamps and Flames that can be used by the public when not required by the teams.

The Flames can fund the Arena. I might consider they City fronting a contribution if repayment from a ticket tax was 100% guaranteed within 10 -15 years.

It would be nice if one or more of the owners would demonstrate real support for the proposal by investing in a real estate project on site as well. Start building that tax base!

I'm dreaming here, but I'd also consider whether a LRT spur line providing direct access to the Arena and Field House could be incorporated on site, underground before shovels hit the ground.

[Mccree]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

You're not going to see any negotiating or updates until the land study is done. Once that first domino falls either the project is dead in the water, or it will start the discussions.

Why do these studies always seem to take so long?

[Biyaaaah]

Nenshi's response was perfect. Bettman wasn't getting any special treatment and why should he. He wasn't going to waste time with a lobbyist which I certainly appreciate.

The Council is neither positive nor negative on the deal because there is no real proposal in place yet. More information on the way in the spring, followed by public consultation. There's no need for the mayor's involvement at this point. He has more important business on his plate. Bettman made remarks saying that Calgary won't get this or that until a new arena is in place and Nenshi responded in kind to let them know we won't get bent over like Edmonton did. I don't think we could have asked for a better response.

How do you not love a response from our mayor that fits in with the E=NG mentality!

[Leeman4Gilmour]

I'm one of the 25% in favour. This is based on an assumption that what Ken King presented to the public was a watered down version of what has been presented to the city. I'm assuming this, because that's a fairly typical strategy - dumb it down for Joe Public. However, perhaps I missed something? Has it been confirmed the information given to the city was a print out of the PowerPoint given to the public?

Also, Nenshi's comments regarding Bettman sounded petty. Nenshi shoudl be better than that.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

I'm one of the 25% in favour. This is based on an assumption that what Ken King presented to the public was a watered down version of what has been presented to the city. I'm assuming this, because that's a fairly typical strategy - dumb it down for Joe Public. However, perhaps I missed something? Has it been confirmed the information given to the city was a print out of the PowerPoint given to the public?

Also, Nenshi's comments regarding Bettman sounded petty. Nenshi shoudl be better than that.

So you admit to not knowing anything about the proposal submitted to the city, but have concluded Nenshi's comments are the problem.

[stone hands]

"new arena" is basically all most people seem to need to hear to be on board with it

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

So you admit to not knowing anything about the proposal submitted to the city, but have concluded Nenshi's comments are the problem.

Ummmm, no .

A number of people have assumed that what they've seen is what the city has seen, hence the negativity toward Ken King and his ability to lead this project. I'm assuming what the public has seen is quite a bit less than what the city has seen. My assumption may be wrong. Don't know.

On an entirely different note, I disagreed with Nenshi's comments towards Bettman. They seemed petty and unnecessary.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I think Locke mentioned it in the other thread, the city doesn't want the Flames to actually be on the hook for or fully own the buildings. The city still wants some control of the facilities and I'm pretty sure 200-300 million total from the city would start negotiations.

Can anyone validate this claim? Sounds very presumptive to me.

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

Why wouldn't they act like that though? Obviously they will try and milk whatever they can out of the city, and you can't fault them for it. It's just the starting point in the negotiations, Flames ask for the world then the city comes back and says you get nothing, then the Flames will counter and so on. That's why I don't know why a lot of people are getting upset about rich people looking for a hand out, or people complaining the city isn't willing to contribute.

I just don't understand the way the Flames went about it. Come in with a half baked proposal, because you can't actually negotiate or move forward until the land study is done. They should have just stopped planning anything until the spring when the cost of the clean up was known.

I don't even know what to say to your bolded statement...I mean really? You can't understand why people would object? The rest of your post is reasonable though

[Stay Golden]

Shown on the news last night Nenshi's initial reaction to the local medias reading of Bettman's statement was a bratty brash...and!
Clearly Bettman wouldn't have as Nenshi mentioned (anything new to discuss). But make time for the man.
Nenshi came across as an a-hole instead. Acting like he didn't have time.
What you don't have time??. I'm not a fan of Bettman in fact i dislike the weasel but Nenshi treated him like i'm God in this city do you have an appointment?
Nenshi acted very arrogant and juvenile.
Bettman won't be doing any favors for Calgary anytime soon you be assured of that.
It was bad PR on the part of Nenshi.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

Bettman won't be doing any favors for Calgary anytime soon you be assured of that.

What kind of favors could he offer to repay the one he is asking of Calgary?

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Can anyone validate this claim? Sounds very presumptive to me.




I don't even know what to say to your bolded statement...I mean really? You can't understand why people would object? The rest of your post is reasonable though

Yes, in the context of the negotiation I don't know why people are getting upset about it. It's no different when you go buy a new car, you want the best deal possible. This is just a REALLY expensive car.

[Stay Golden]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

What kind of favors could he offer to repay the one he is asking of Calgary?

You know what i mean its a figurative expression.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

You know what i mean its a figurative expression.

So who cares? The city shouldn't be giving hundreds of millions of dollars in exchange for figurative favors from Gary Bettman.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

Yes, in the context of the negotiation I don't know why people are getting upset about it. It's no different when you go buy a new car, you want the best deal possible. This is just a REALLY expensive car.

The difference here is that public reaction will actually impact the city's decisions...

Of course each stakeholder wants the best deal possible, the car example doesn't really relate. Unless maybe Murray Edwards wanted to buy a super expensive limited edition Ferrari, and have the city pay half since it will make our city so prestigious, and some people might travel here to see it.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I wish we had a poll with more specific options, e.g. "I support the city providing funds at the requested level"; "I support the city providing some funds, but less than requested"; "I support the city providing land but not funds"...

I think at this stage what I think should happen, if they're putting this complex on that West Village site, that the city can pay for remediation and put up the land for use for X period of time, but retain ownership of said land. Flames own the buildings and get free use of land until X time (which could be until their cost of construction is recouped, maybe).

I'm open to being convinced otherwise, just sort of spitballing about what makes sense to me.

[Stay Golden]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

So who cares? The city shouldn't be giving hundreds of millions of dollars in exchange for figurative favors from Gary Bettman.

In the poignant words of Charlie Brown "oh good grief"
It was crap PR by Nenshi he should have met with Bettman and then agree to disagree behind closed doors.
Instead Nenshi chose to go into a bratty response to Bettmans request to see him.
Personally i think the Flames fininacial commitment to this Nxt proposal is a joke and wanting to build on contaminated land is laughable and nothing more to delay building a new arena at all.
But Nenshi's handling of Bettmans request to see him was equally a joke.