2 dead & 6 injured as teens take after hours sled ride down Winsport bobsleigh track

[polak]

I don't think the "how could they anticipate the gate" thing is a valid excuse.

What do things that are closed usually have? Gates. Closed roads have gates, closed rides have gates, closed anything has a gate. I'd say that's the #1 thing I'd expect. Even at 17.

You're sneaking on to a closed bobsled track. Even 16 year old me would probably think it was a good idea to walk down the track first to make sure there isn't something they do to the track after hours since you cant see the entire track from the top.

It was a dumb mistake. Kids make mistakes. Really sad situation that their mistake had such dire consequences.

[taco.vidal]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...igh-speed.html

One of six teenage boys injured during a bobsled track crash that killed twin brothers at Canada Olympic Park in Calgary has lost an eye.

Caleb Hettinga, 17, had severe injuries to his head and face after the crash and lost vision in one eye permanently, Rocky Mountain Calvary Chapel Pastor Quinn Davis said during a service dedicated to the teenagers.

'His face and his head underwent great trauma,' said the pastor during the service. 'The swelling was unbelievable. There was a point when we stood with them and they just didn’t know if their son was going to survive or not.'

Caleb, who has gone ten hours of surgery, went to high school with twin brothers Jordan and Evan Caldwell, both 17, who died after the crash.

[undercoverbrother]

This is a sad event.


I feel for the family left behind.


I would not be surprised if a lawsuit arose out of this incident.

[tete]

The son of one of my friends worked with the twins at COP and he's just shocked that it was them. Said they were the most straight and narrow kids ever - were petrified to take a discount at Winsport for fear they got fired, always were asking to make sure that it was okay for them to go in and warm up on cold days, etc.

I can't imagine what the family is going through right now.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Slava

I don't know if you're implying that I'm 'parroting' this line with my post above, but my point is slightly different. Sure, its great that the people there were fired for that action, but did COP take extra measures after that to prevent people from doing this? I understand that this might have only happened once before and was slightly different (picnic table or whatever instead of a sled), but it would indicate to me that COP knew that people had gotten on the track before, and therefore knew of the potential risk. Of course that's something for the lawyers to argue over and come to some resolution, but that's a pretty obvious angle.

Those are things that COP will need to answer and I am sure the police are looking into.

The guy that I mentioned in Toronto wasn't sued, but there were some kind of charges after teens trespassed onto his property and were then injured, despite having a fence and signs. The problem was that the building on the property was constantly vandalized and it was obvious that the owner knew that the measures he took weren't keeping people out.

One thing on their side though is that if it is true that 2 of the kids were ex-employees, it is reasonable to think that they knew more than the average person on how to sneak on to the track, thereby undermining the security measures.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I would not be surprised if a lawsuit arose out of this incident.

This isn't the US.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by heep223

This isn't the US.

No but Alberta is a very litigious province.


I, like you, have very limited information on this incident.


That being said, you can sue for anything. Doesn't mean you will win or should win.


If COP is found to have contributed to this, via action or inaction, they could end up paying.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

No but Alberta is a very litigious province.
I, like you, have very limited information on this incident.
That being said, you can sue for anything. Doesn't mean you will win or should win.
If COP is found to have contributed to this, via action or inaction, they could end up paying.

Have any lawyers chimed in on this thread? I haven't gone through it

[jeffporfirio]

Tragic event.
Being the parent of a teenage boy, and having done countless things that would have resulted in the loss of life (not only my own but others also) as a teenager, this hits close to home.
I feel horrible for the family.
Need to have a talk with my son tonight.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

I honestly can't tell you one thing I remember doing that was extremely risky and reckless. I mean, it's not like I never had fun -- say for example, white water rafting. I did that as a teen, and it was fun. But we had proper equipment -- full size rafts, wet suits, life jackets, helmets, experienced leaders familiar with the river, etc. If a buddy would've suggested doing it by ourselves, at night, in an inner-tube, in nothing but my swimsuit (which would be the close comparable to this situation) there's no way I would've done it.

Maybe I was just boring, though.

Or maybe you just didn't have the dysphoria that many teens have (but usually outgrow), which leads to risk taking and recklessness. If you dodged that bullet, than that's good for you.

[troutman]

Another friend taught the twins at Sunday School, possibly Caleb too. He is heart-broken. Another boy he taught is also fighting for his life.

Classes are cancelled at Westmount today for Grade 12, and grief counselors are on hand. The teachers had a heartbreaking meeting last night.

Everyone is shattered.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by heep223

Have any lawyers chimed in on this thread? I haven't gone through it

Don't know to be honest.

As I said, you can sue for anything.

Sometimes, after traumatic events, people will look for "someone to blame".

Be clear, I am not saying there is any fault with COP, but there is an exposure to COP.

[taco.vidal]

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...-deaths-lawyer

It is unlikely the operator of a high-performance training facility in Calgary would be held legally responsible for the deaths of two teenage brothers who took an after-hours toboggan run down an Olympic luge-bobsled track, says a liability

Ive seen a couple of other similar articles this morning.

I suspect lawsuits might be more likely from the survivors rather than from the family of the deceased.

I wonder if this was the first time these people slid down or if they had done it previously with success.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

I honestly can't tell you one thing I remember doing that was extremely risky and reckless. I mean, it's not like I never had fun -- say for example, white water rafting. I did that as a teen, and it was fun. But we had proper equipment -- full size rafts, wet suits, life jackets, helmets, experienced leaders familiar with the river, etc. If a buddy would've suggested doing it by ourselves, at night, in an inner-tube, in nothing but my swimsuit (which would be the close comparable to this situation) there's no way I would've done it.

Maybe I was just boring, though.

I don't think this makes you so great. I think most boys do this stuff, except the ones that sat around playing video games and have lame stories to tell.

Off the top of my head, my friends and I:

• Snowboarded out of bounds
• Snowboarded back country
• Snowboarding through trees
• Dropped cliffs on our snowboards (that's all we'd do for a couple years, in fact). They were getting very high by the end.
• Sledded behind cars
• Snowboarded off the roof of my friend's garage
• 4x4ed all over Waiprous and MacLean Creek
• Rode dirt bikes in Waiprous and MacLean
• Drank a lot
• Sped
• Traffic weaved
• Made jumps. For our cars.
• Bungee jumped
• Skydiving
• Rock climbing
• Made street luges out of skateboards and went down roads in Edgemont doing 60-70 kph
• Sat in the back of pick-up trucks
• Shot each other with pellet guns
• Skateboarded everywhere with no helmets or pads
• Kayaked
• I could go on forever with this

The above is normal stuff and I left out a bunch of stuff that could get me in trouble, too. I wasn't even that crazy as a kid. Did decent in school. Have a university degree. Held jobs, etc.

I think if your frame of reference for this stuff is 'I didn't do anything reckless' you're thinking that's normal. In fact, I think you led an unusual adolescence if you didn't get up to shenanigans. I still hang out with all my friends from high school on a weekly basis - maybe because we bonded over all that fun stuff. They're our favourite memories and we still talk about them and get up to them 20 years later.

How many mountains have you climbed? How many snowboard races have you won? How many rock climbing competitions have you won? What's the highest cliff you've dropped? What is the most exciting thing you've done?

I've been laid up in intensive care with a lacerated spleen from smashing into a rock snowboarding out of bounds at Fortress. I got lucky and am thankful I kept my spleen, for one, and that it wasn't worse, for two. I still am glad I wasn't the type of kid that laid around on the couch in my teens and 20s, and now thirties, though.

This bobsled ride these guys went on was dangerous for sure. They knew that. It was going to be fun partly because of that. Conquering something scary and extreme is its own reward, though, which is the main reason people do this stuff.

What they didn't know was there'd be a gate halfway down. I wouldn't have thought that, either. I think it's a terrible design that you'd put a wall up there. We'll see how all this shakes out in the end, and I don't think this is COP's fault, but something will have to change so it doesn't happen again. The obvious thing would be to remove the barrier in the middle of the GD track when it's not in use just in case we can't come up with a better way to keep people off the track.

At the end of the day, it's so sad. I feel really bad for theses people as I can relate to them completely. I can put myself in their shoes moments before going down the hill and know the fear and excitement that was going through their heads. I wish guys like you hung out and had fun with guys like us a couple of times so you could have had a little fun and so you could better empathize with these situations.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...-deaths-lawyer



Ive seen a couple of other similar articles this morning.

I suspect lawsuits might be more likely from the survivors rather than from the family of the deceased.

I wonder if this was the first time these people slid down or if they had done it previously with success.

When not picking, he is a lawyer

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Please don't turn this thread into some ridiculous debate about the merits of lawsuits. It is way, way too soon for the 'random hypothetical thread tangent'.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Sliver

What they didn't know was there'd be a gate halfway down. I wouldn't have thought that, either. I think it's a terrible design that you'd put a wall up there. We'll see how all this shakes out in the end, and I don't think this is COP's fault, but something will have to change so it doesn't happen again. The obvious thing would be to remove the barrier in the middle of the GD track when it's not in use just in case we can't come up with a better way to keep people off the track.

Do you know anything about the gate? I've heard that it's concrete, built into the track and weighs in the neighborhood of 1-2 tons. You think that's going to just easily be removed every night in case someone decides to break multiple laws, ignore multiple warnings and do something inherently dangerous anyhow? Do you also know why the gate is there? Without it, both tracks are considered very dangerous, as due to the Y junction it protects, proper sliding equipment (bobsleds and skeletons) can get turned around in that space, if they hit the corners wrong. The gate is a safety device in and of itself, which anyone using the facility properly and legally would know about. Everyone griping about how it's a "terrible design" that a switchgate would be there doesn't seem to understand how the tracks actually work.

At the end of the day, it's so sad. I feel really bad for theses people as I can relate to them completely. I can put myself in their shoes moments before going down the hill and know the fear and excitement that was going through their heads. I wish guys like you hung out and had fun with guys like us a couple of times so you could have had a little fun and so you could better empathize with these situations.

I feel that this was an unfortunate accident for the 8 kids involved. I feel that this is a tragic accident for the 8 families involved. I can empathize with the pain the 6 remaining alive feel.

I STILL feel that they and they alone are responsible for their actions and the consequences of those actions. And yes, I've done some dumb stuff as a kid that, had something gone different, I'd likely have ended up dead.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Sliver

What they didn't know was there'd be a gate halfway down. I wouldn't have thought that, either. I think it's a terrible design that you'd put a wall up there.

I don't think any of us are "Sleigh Track Engineers". The tracks are designed for specific sleighs, piloted by profesionals, in ideal conditions, under regulated controls. These were designed for Olympic events and world cups. For Joe public to question the design and reasoning behind it is ridiculous. I believe in an earlier post someone said the gate is there to act as a switch between the Luge and Bobsleigh runs, which makes sense to me.

Now the track in Whistler, I agree that that one was poorly designed.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by Sliver

This bobsled ride these guys went on was dangerous for sure. They knew that. It was going to be fun partly because of that. Conquering something scary and extreme is its own reward, though, which is the main reason people do this stuff.

What they didn't know was there'd be a gate halfway down. I wouldn't have thought that, either. I think it's a terrible design that you'd put a wall up there. We'll see how all this shakes out in the end, and I don't think this is COP's fault, but something will have to change so it doesn't happen again. The obvious thing would be to remove the barrier in the middle of the GD track when it's not in use just in case we can't come up with a better way to keep people off the track.

I've done many stupid and dangerous things in the name of fun, but I think that you (and many others here) are underestimating the danger of this activity. Even if there was no gate, the chance of them making it to the finish line would be minuscule.

Also, the gate needs to be there for safety reasons - having bobsleds swing out wide to hit the wall where the tracks join would put them at an awkward angle and result in more crashes on the course.

[polak]

Again, how on earth are people saying that they wouldn't expect a gate or obstacle on a CLOSED(!) bobsled track.