2 dead & 6 injured as teens take after hours sled ride down Winsport bobsleigh track - Page 20 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Bagor · 02-09-2016, 03:50 PM

I'm just realizing now that the barrier is not a barrier per se across the track but one that funnels the track off to a dead end.

I am assuming by some miracle they all missed the chain.

GoinAllTheWay · 02-09-2016, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

Like, actual legal BS or just that it doesnt factor into the legality and it totally should?

Because Vlad knows the former and I agree with the latter. I find it crazy that the fact that you broke in doesnt matter.

I think it's BS that trespassing is irrelevant. I knew that as it comes up in home owners liability, I just think it's beyond stupid.

You trespass on to private property, you do so at your own risk IMO.

I FULLY agree with your opinion on the matter.

polak · 02-09-2016, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagor

I'm just realizing now that the barrier is not a barrier per se across the track but one that funnels the track off to a dead end.

I am assuming by some miracle they all missed the chain.

I read in here that there was a rumor that they got decapitated so they might not have.

Locke · 02-09-2016, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

I think it's BS that trespassing is irrelevant. I knew that as it comes up in home owners liability, I just think it's beyond stupid.

You trespass on to private property, you do so at your own risk IMO.

I FULLY agree with your opinion on the matter.

Yeah, but thats my opinion, if Vlad says it doesnt matter I have to believe him. I think its crazy, but he actually knows.

dubc80 · 02-09-2016, 03:55 PM

Its more of a barricade. Looks like a flipper paddle on a pinball machine.
The whole red part in the image below moves.

So.. the kids would of run into the chain that goes across, and then into the "V" shape that it creates when closed.

calgaryblood · 02-09-2016, 03:56 PM

I have zero doubt if a lawsuit is brought representing the kids families it will be either won in court or settled out of court. This incident will likely end up costing COP close to $20 million.

undercoverbrother · 02-09-2016, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

I have zero doubt if a lawsuit is brought representing the kids families it will be either won in court or settled out of court. This incident will likely end up costing COP close to $20 million.

Their insurer more likely.

calgaryblood · 02-09-2016, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Their insurer more likely.

Yeah, but will the insurance cover negligence by COP? They might decline to pay if it is found COP is negligent, or does insurance cover negligence? Not too sure to be honest but I can see it being declined if that's the case.

taco.vidal · 02-09-2016, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

I have zero doubt if a lawsuit is brought representing the kids families it will be either won in court or settled out of court. This incident will likely end up costing COP close to $20 million.

20? Not 1 or 50, or $500k? What precedent do you base 20 on?

And most of the focus is on lawsuits on behalf of the deceased. The survivors are the ones who could use money especially when potential brain damage is still being reported for at least one young man.

para transit fellow · 02-09-2016, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

20? Not 1 or 50, or $500k? What precedent do you base 20 on?

And most of the focus is on lawsuits on behalf of the deceased. The survivors are the ones who could use money especially when potential brain damage is still being reported for at least one young man.

I see it the other way.. most of the lawsuit efforts (time resources, court days) will be for long-term care of the survivors.

Someone already posted that there is a limit to damages awarded for a fatality

HockeyIlliterate · 02-09-2016, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

I have zero doubt if a lawsuit is brought representing the kids families it will be either won in court or settled out of court. This incident will likely end up costing COP close to $20 million.

Quote:

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Their insurer more likely.

Whatever the amount, and regardless of who the ultimate payor is, I think that it would be a real tragedy if any such lawsuit resulted in COP/Winsport ceasing operations.

Fighting Banana Slug · 02-09-2016, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

I have zero doubt if a lawsuit is brought representing the kids families it will be either won in court or settled out of court. This incident will likely end up costing COP close to $20 million.

This is getting ridiculous. First, you are convinced that COP is liable based on very few facts, and second, you come up with an award based on no facts? Come on.

I think the bit that Vlad is alluding to whereby trespassing is irrelevant, is the basic premise that you need to establish 3 things for a successful action in negligence:
1. Owe a duty of care. Even a trespasser is owed a duty of care. Not so sure it is the same duty, if it were a paying customer or a visitor, but I don't practice in this area, so I will defer to Vlad on the point. Relatively easy to establish a duty was owed.
2. Breach of duty. This is where it gets tougher. Big fences and locked doors would go along way in establishing that there was no breach, but there are very few details in this regard.
3. Damages. Again fairly obvious, but $20mm because it was a terrible accident, isn't going to cut it.

VladtheImpaler · 02-09-2016, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

Out of curiosity would COP still be liable if they crashed and died without the gate in place?

The gate us a "trap", so that definitely makes it worse.

VladtheImpaler · 02-09-2016, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

I have zero doubt if a lawsuit is brought representing the kids families it will be either won in court or settled out of court. This incident will likely end up costing COP close to $20 million.

82,000 per child or whatever the number adjusted for inflation is in the Fatal Accidents Act.
In the abstract I agree that there should be a difference between trespassers and invitees, but the governments in all CanadIan jurisdictions disagree - each province has its own Occupiers Liability Act and they are all pretty much the same, so that's the law we have to work with. Again, I don't know the mechanics of what the actual set up is on the track. I am just basing my opinion on the very superficial info I gleaned here.

Barbecue · 02-09-2016, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4X4

To keep you from escaping and ruining the internet?

Too late! He's already ruined this thread

JonDuke · 02-09-2016, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polak

I read in here that there was a rumor that they got decapitated so they might not have.

I saw the original post here, but haven't seen anything else, anywhere, to suggest this at all. It's just that...an internet rumor, and I wish it could just be deleted altogether so we can stick with known facts.

VladtheImpaler · 02-09-2016, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

Wow. I dont doubt you, not just because I know you but also because you'll steal my dumplings next time, but wow.

I find it hard to believe that the trespassing is irrelevant, but obviously it must be but as 'not a lawyer' I dont feel that it should be.

I am sitting out here on the deck in Tucson thinking about dumplings. They have no dumplings here - just tacos. We shall have to go in March.

Locke · 02-09-2016, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

I am sitting out here on the deck in Tucson thinking about dumplings. They have no dumplings here - just tacos. We shall have to go in March.

Bring it.

cam_wmh · 02-09-2016, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

I have zero doubt if a lawsuit is brought representing the kids families it will be either won in court or settled out of court. This incident will likely end up costing COP close to $20 million.

What do you base this on? Surely, not arbitrary.

Slava · 02-09-2016, 07:30 PM

I think that the other thing that makes the case worse for the defence here (COP/Winsport) is that there are plenty of stories that they knew of employees sliding down the track in whatever capacity before this. On CTV tonight there was a former employee who said he had heard stories and that they were trying to put a stop to it. He couldn't say it had continued, but there seem to be these persistent rumours that this wasn't the first case of someone doing this.

So if the chronology is that these boys worked there, heard about other people doing this and thought it sounded like a blast, its just worse for COP, purely in my not legally educated opinion. They owe the duty, and are aware that people are doing this or have done it, and have failed to put a stop to it.