2 dead & 6 injured as teens take after hours sled ride down Winsport bobsleigh track

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Locke

I view this as a tragedy, and as someone well acquainted with the venue it hits me hard, but at the same time I honestly do not believe that other people should be held accountable for this.

I dont believe this is COP's fault for anything.

I think we have to be reasonable in terms of security, if it was locked up and the security guards were following protocol and were not in any way deliberately negligent or complicit then its not like the place should have to be battened down like a military installation every night on the off chance that someone might consider this kind of thing.

I'm going to quote myself because I cant believe I'd have to repeat it.

What should COP have to do? Dismantle the track at the end of every day?

[polak]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Then everything is a death trap. Your car, stairs, vending machines, showers, chairs are all death traps.

Calling something a death trap implies you have a high chance of being killed by it. Considering 99.9999% of people who have used the track haven't died, it isn't a death trap. It's only a death trap if you break into the park and use the track with your own sled and the gate is in the way.

Anyone who goes down the track with the gate there would have died. That's probably one of the fastest points in the track. Any time that gate is closed on the bobsleigh track, it's a death trap.

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm going to quote myself because I cant believe I'd have to repeat it.

What should COP have to do? Dismantle the track at the end of every day?

I put 100% of the blame on the kids but I still think that COP will be legally responsible in some way. They could put a sign that says gate is up? Not that hard.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by polak

I put 100% of the blame on the kids but I still think that COP will be legally responsible in some way. They could put a sign that says gate is up? Not that hard.

Or....they could acknowledge the 'Private Property' sign. Or the 'No Trespassing' sign. Or the 'Authorized Personnel Only' sign.

But you're right, more signs is the answer.

They were negligent for not having that crucial final sign.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by polak

When I went to O'Byrne and there was a kid who died from an illness and I was kind of shocked that there wasn't any sort of mention of it at school besides a quick comment during the announcements. It was shocking to me at the time because we've had "prayers" and "celebrations" over the dumbest stuff throughout my entire k-12 education but didn't do anything to honor this kid.

Messed up if you ask me. Glad to hear that's no longer the case.

Schools are weird with that type of stuff. In high school one of our teachers passed away in the middle of the semester and all they did was inform the students in his class that he died and they would get a new teacher to take over.

Like no announcement to the student body, just literally to his students.

[Fuzz]

Maybe they had a sign. Maybe they had a gate at the top as well. Maybe there were big red lights that said track closed. Anyone know what measures had to be bypassed for the kids to get on the track?

[speedog]

Originally Posted by polak

I put 100% of the blame on the kids but I still think that COP will be legally responsible in some way. They could put a sign that says gate is up? Not that hard.

And where would you suggest this sign be placed? At the bobsled start or luge start? We don't even know where these kids started sliding from - they very well could've jumped into the track part ways down from the bobsled start.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Locke

Or....they could acknowledge the 'Private Property' sign. Or the 'No Trespassing' sign. Or the 'Authorized Personnel Only' sign.

But you're right, more signs is the answer.

They were negligent for not having that crucial final sign.

Probably, yeah.

Originally Posted by speedog

And where would you suggest this sign be placed? At the bobsled start or luge start? We don't even know where these kids started sliding from - they very well could've jumped into the track part ways down from the bobsled start.

Then COP probably won't be held responsible? Big difference between them walking up to the entrance of the track completely unimpeded and going down vs. COP's security measures forcing them to sneak around and jumping over the railings and what not to get on the track further down.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Why?

Why can't personal responsibility be a larger part of our society? Instead of passing the blame.

Exactly. I get tired of listening to people doing something stupid looking for ways to blame someone else. It's a sickening trend.

People need to realize they are responsible for their actions and stop looking for someone else to blame.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Maybe they had a sign. Maybe they had a gate at the top as well. Maybe there were big red lights that said track closed. Anyone know what measures had to be bypassed for the kids to get on the track?

They do have a gate at the top but yes its easy to climb over. Its more to stop people as they wait their turn to go down than anything else.

That being said there are parts of the track where you can approach it and its only about chest high. This is for spectators at events.

So add another gate at the top and there are still ways for determined individuals to get onto the track.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by polak

Probably, yeah.

You're obsessed with this gate. No it isn't yeah probably. Like you said the blame is 100% on the kids, which means not COP won't/shouldn't be held responsible. There are enough signs, one more isn't going to make a huge difference. They broke into the place in the first place, pretty positive there are all sorts of signs they ignored already.

[polak]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

You're obsessed with this gate. No it isn't yeah probably. Like you said the blame is 100% on the kids, which means not COP won't/shouldn't be held responsible. There are enough signs, one more isn't going to make a huge difference. They broke into the place in the first place, pretty positive there are all sorts of signs they ignored already.

Unfortunately I am not the law.

Really? A big ass "Gate Closed" sign over the entrance wouldn't change anything?

I agree that it's 100% the kids fault but if all it takes to go down the track is sneaking over a chain link fence then COP is going to be taking some legal blame for this.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Trespassing or not doesn't matter if someone's negligence causes injury.

It's why when construction companies dig a big hole they just don't put "no trespassing signs" because even if someone does trespass and let's say the hole is covered by plywood and it collapses when the person walks on it....the construction company will still be responsible. You still have to make your property safe even when you're closed.

I don't see a scenario where there isn't a lawsuit brought and won/settled out of court. Now I only have a little information but from what I gather there was no gate at the top of the slide and that will likely be what will be the downfall of COP.

I knew that was the case when it comes to charges from the Crown, I just wasn't sure if civil responsibility takes into consideration a burden of personal responsibility on behalf of the people who entered illegally.

I kind of look at it the same way I do with railways. People get hit by trains all the time while technically trespassing, but I don't think they get sued every time.

[automaton 3]

For those interested, here is a relevant section from the Act:

Child trespassers
13(1) When an occupier knows or has reason to know
(a) that a child trespasser is on the occupier’s premises, and
(b) that the condition of, or activities on, the premises create a danger of death or serious bodily harm to that child,
the occupier owes a duty to that child to take such care as in all the circumstances of the case is reasonable to see that the child will be reasonably safe from that danger.
(2) In determining whether the duty of care under subsection (1) has been discharged, consideration shall be given to
(a) the age of the child,
(b) the ability of the child to appreciate the danger, and
(c) the burden on the occupier of eliminating the danger or protecting the child from the danger as compared to the risk of the danger to the child.
(3) For the purposes of subsection (1), the occupier has reason to know that a child trespasser is on the occupier’s premises if the occupier has knowledge of facts from which a reasonable person would infer that a child is present or that the presence of a child is so probable that the occupier should conduct himself or herself on the assumption that a child is present.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by polak

Unfortunately I am not the law.

Really? A big ass "Gate Closed" sign over the entrance wouldn't change anything?

I agree that it's 100% the kids fault but if all it takes to go down the track is sneaking over a chain link fence then COP is going to be taking some legal blame for this.

Which gate is this sign referring to? The gate preventing people entering the park illegally after hours, the gate at the top of the track, or the gate in the middle of the track?

Man this is complicated stuff. Maybe people just shouldn't break into places for illegal use?

[HockeyIlliterate]

Two questions:

1) Who owns COP/Winsport? Is it an entity of the Province or Federal Government? Might sovereign immunity come into play here?

2) To those who suggest that the teens should have walked the track first, how do you recommend such an action occur? From what I've seen in the photos, portions of the track are covered--how would those portions been "walked" for safety?

Originally Posted by polak

Really? A big ass "Gate Closed" sign over the entrance wouldn't change anything?

Prior to the events giving rise to this thread, did you personally know that there was a "gate"* (of any sort) on any portion of either the luge or the bobsled track? And, if so, did you know its exact and precise location?

Furthermore, do you honestly believe that someone who is crazy/stupid/dumb/inebriated/foolish/daredevil-prone/etc to go onto a portion of an Olympic-level track, at night, without permission, using unauthorized (if not non-standard) equipment in hopes of sliding down the track, is going to take the time to read any sign, regardless of its size, and contemplate its precise meaning and consider its possible implications?


* Personally, I think the term "gate" is being misused here. When I hear the word "gate," I think of a metal bar gate, the type used in between fence posts on a ranch to let the livestock in and out, not a massive concrete barrier that could pass for a highway divider.

[Lubicon]

Winsport is an independant not for profit organization according to their website.

http://www.winsport.ca/aboutwinsport...ort_n58pqn.cfm

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Schools are weird with that type of stuff. In high school one of our teachers passed away in the middle of the semester and all they did was inform the students in his class that he died and they would get a new teacher to take over.

Like no announcement to the student body, just literally to his students.

When I went to school, the only thing that happened when a student died is they'd get a memorandum in the yearbook.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by polak

Really? A big ass "Gate Closed" sign over the entrance wouldn't change anything?

Maybe I'm a cynical person, but I actually don't think it would have made a lick of difference if you littered the place in all kinds of signs.

Recall the center street bridge sign that warns people about the low clearance of the lower bridge deck. Despite it's advanced placement and flashing lights, it gets repeatedly pummeled by drivers who do not read and take head at the obvious sign.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2012/12/18...arning-systems+

At the end of the day some young promising lives were lost and the impact of that is far-reaching, and very hard to come to grips with emotionally. I sympathize with anyone who's lives have been forever changed as a result of this. That all said, another terrible legacy of this event would be if a not-for profit institution who ultimately provides this city and country with great facilities for competitive, amateur, and recreational purposes in absence of any evidence of gross negligence ends up getting sued because a bunch of teenagers decided to go on a joy ride in the middle of the night.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by polak

Unfortunately I am not the law.

Really? A big ass "Gate Closed" sign over the entrance wouldn't change anything?

I agree that it's 100% the kids fault but if all it takes to go down the track is sneaking over a chain link fence then COP is going to be taking some legal blame for this.

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Maybe I'm a cynical person, but I actually don't think it would have made a lick of difference if you littered the place in all kinds of signs.

Recall the center street bridge sign that warns people about the low clearance of the lower bridge deck. Despite it's advanced placement and flashing lights, it gets repeatedly pummeled by drivers who do not read and take head at the obvious sign.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2012/12/18...arning-systems

Its not the quality of the sign or anything though. The reality is that a sign doesn't absolve you of liability.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm going to quote myself because I cant believe I'd have to repeat it.

What should COP have to do? Dismantle the track at the end of every day?

I completely agree the fault in this accident is entirely on the people involved and not on winsport, i also think winsport as the operators of a potential dangerous track need to try to do everything possible to ensure a event like this doesn't happen again.

Right now it is in the public consciousness so I doubt anyone will be attempting the run again, however, 10 years from now once the memory has faded I could see someone chasing the thrill again.

Maybe some solutions include removing the barrier completely from the track when not in use. and/or a more significant barrier at the top with signage that not only indicates the track is closed but that the track is blocked as well.

Let's be honest if you've made the decision to sneak in after hours and see a sign that says track closed you're gonna think no kidding and ignore it. If you see a sign that says track closed, danger obstruction on track or something of that ilk, well you're going to take that sign a hell of a lot more seriously.