2 dead & 6 injured as teens take after hours sled ride down Winsport bobsleigh track

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by polak

Again, how on earth are people saying that they wouldn't expect a gate or obstacle on a CLOSED(!) bobsled track.

Did you know a gate was there? I had no idea a gate would be halfway down the thing. I'm pretty sure I was only vaguely aware the two tracks became one.

[GGG]

You need the gate because it becomes the wall for the other track to turn on. It needs to be moveable because both groups train on the hill.

I wonder if there is a position indicator at the top that these kids just overlooked because if I am training I would be concerned which position the gate is in before I started a run. Or maybe their is a screen with a camera on the gate that is turned off.

I hope winsport isn't found at all responsible because I think what they did was reasonable in terms of fencing and security. I think people need to let go of this need to blame someone to account for the randomness of life. Some bad decisions end tragically and others don't. We can't stop all bad decisions. One bad decision and the randomness of life got these kids. If they went to the luge track or if they came on a different day they probably end up with broken bones instead of a fatality.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Did you know a gate was there? I had no idea a gate would be halfway down the thing. I'm pretty sure I was only vaguely aware the two tracks became one.

Yeah this is my take too. I had no idea there was a gate. I probably woudln't have gone down the track even in my most stupid moment - but not because I was aware there was a gate. I had no clue. Would never have occured to me.

The fact that the twins were ex-employees (is that confirmed) though would mean they should have been more aware of the gate perhaps. Beats me though.

We've all done stuff in our lives that was Darwin worthy. Mine was drinking so much alcohol when I was 18 that I suffered severe alcohol poisoning. Could have been worse - and was really stupid. And I was not a stupid kid. Just got caught in the moment.
That's what makes this so tragic.

[cavalera403]

My thoughts and prayers are with the families of those affected and especially of the Paramedics/ CFD/ CPD.

One thing that I have not seen or heard with all the talk of potential lawsuits is if charges of trespassing are going to be brought against the survivors?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The fact that the twins were ex-employees (is that confirmed) though would mean they should have been more aware of the gate perhaps. Beats me though.

if this article get's it right they were


http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...-deaths-lawyer

Peter Collins said the fact that twins Jordan and Evan Caldwell, 17, were former employees at Canada Olympic Park makes it especially improbable that site operator WinSport would be held liable for the incident.

The twin brothers had worked as “Hill Ambassadors” at the facility last winter.

[OutOfTheCube]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I don't think this makes you so great. I think most boys do this stuff, except the ones that sat around playing video games and have lame stories to tell.

Off the top of my head, my friends and I:

• Snowboarded out of bounds
• Snowboarded back country
• Snowboarding through trees
• Dropped cliffs on our snowboards (that's all we'd do for a couple years, in fact). They were getting very high by the end.
• Sledded behind cars
• Snowboarded off the roof of my friend's garage
• 4x4ed all over Waiprous and MacLean Creek
• Rode dirt bikes in Waiprous and MacLean
• Drank a lot
• Sped
• Traffic weaved
• Made jumps. For our cars.
• Bungee jumped
• Skydiving
• Rock climbing
• Made street luges out of skateboards and went down roads in Edgemont doing 60-70 kph
• Sat in the back of pick-up trucks
• Shot each other with pellet guns
• Skateboarded everywhere with no helmets or pads
• Kayaked
• I could go on forever with this

The above is normal stuff and I left out a bunch of stuff that could get me in trouble, too. I wasn't even that crazy as a kid. Did decent in school. Have a university degree. Held jobs, etc.

I think if your frame of reference for this stuff is 'I didn't do anything reckless' you're thinking that's normal. In fact, I think you led an unusual adolescence if you didn't get up to shenanigans. I still hang out with all my friends from high school on a weekly basis - maybe because we bonded over all that fun stuff. They're our favourite memories and we still talk about them and get up to them 20 years later.

How many mountains have you climbed? How many snowboard races have you won? How many rock climbing competitions have you won? What's the highest cliff you've dropped? What is the most exciting thing you've done?

I've been laid up in intensive care with a lacerated spleen from smashing into a rock snowboarding out of bounds at Fortress. I got lucky and am thankful I kept my spleen, for one, and that it wasn't worse, for two. I still am glad I wasn't the type of kid that laid around on the couch in my teens and 20s, and now thirties, though.

This bobsled ride these guys went on was dangerous for sure. They knew that. It was going to be fun partly because of that. Conquering something scary and extreme is its own reward, though, which is the main reason people do this stuff.

What they didn't know was there'd be a gate halfway down. I wouldn't have thought that, either. I think it's a terrible design that you'd put a wall up there. We'll see how all this shakes out in the end, and I don't think this is COP's fault, but something will have to change so it doesn't happen again. The obvious thing would be to remove the barrier in the middle of the GD track when it's not in use just in case we can't come up with a better way to keep people off the track.

At the end of the day, it's so sad. I feel really bad for theses people as I can relate to them completely. I can put myself in their shoes moments before going down the hill and know the fear and excitement that was going through their heads. I wish guys like you hung out and had fun with guys like us a couple of times so you could have had a little fun and so you could better empathize with these situations.

I never claimed it made me so great -- just that there is a difference between "reckless" and "insane". Yeah you did some extreme snowboarding, so what? Did you go up to the top of the mountain and try and go down a tree-filled back country run with no safety equipment on your first day? Or did you try it when you were already an experienced, confident athlete that had some idea what they were doing and getting themselves into?

But it's pretty clear your post is 'the continuing adventures of Sliver pining for the past and trying to be cool like back in the day'. Yes, we all see all the cool things you did, and all know about how you're desperately holding on the good old days by partying in your weird garage with your other maladjusted high school friends. Anything we're missing?

[polak]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Did you know a gate was there? I had no idea a gate would be halfway down the thing. I'm pretty sure I was only vaguely aware the two tracks became one.

I'd definitely go down and check before launching myself down the track. 100%. Even at 17.

The track is closed and you can't see anything after the first turn from the top. Maybe I'm just a pu**y but there's no way I'd be going down it, even as a teenager, without checking to make sure that there isn't any sort of obstacle along the way. Not because I know that there could be a gate from the luge track (I wouldn't have known) but because it's closed and there could be a million things on the track that they put out after hours. What if they were doing maintenance to it or left equipment out or hell even some guy could be on it, painting it or something. There's no way I would have went down blind.

Again, I'm not really trying to put down the kids for doing this. They're kids and they made a very dumb mistake. Even though I don't think I would have made a mistake like this, I made plenty of other equally dumb choices in other situations as a kid. I'm just shocked at how many people are saying they wouldn't expect any sort of obstacle on a closed track...

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by Zarley

I've done many stupid and dangerous things in the name of fun, but I think that you (and many others here) are underestimating the danger of this activity.

And so did those kids. I think that's what most of us are saying. We understand the risks of taking a personal sled down the track at this point in our lives, being fully-developed adults and having survived our youthful risk taking days. I'm just saying I feel like I can understand why those boys so greatly underestimated the risks of what they were doing. It's tragic. I'm not making excuses for them or blaming COP. These viewpoints can co-exist.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Zarley

I've done many stupid and dangerous things in the name of fun, but I think that you (and many others here) are underestimating the danger of this activity. Even if there was no gate, the chance of them making it to the finish line would be minuscule.

The track isn't a killing machine. If there wasn't a gate they would very likely still be alive and this wouldn't be a news story. You can pay and go down the luge portion on your own. Of course this is done with proper instruction and equipment but they wouldn't let people do it, if was extremely dangerous.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by polak

I'd definitely go down and check before launching myself down the track. 100%. Even at 17.

Maybe you would have, but did you ever do anything in your life where you can look back now and realize you maybe didn't assess risk like you should have?

Most people make mistakes at some point. For some people it might be something like going down a bobsled track after hours, or maybe something like cliff jumping or skiing out of bounds. For others, maybe it was taking drugs from unknown sources or having random unprotected sex.

[polak]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Maybe you would have, but did you ever do anything in your life where you can look back now and realize you maybe didn't assess risk like you should have?

Most people make mistakes at some point. For some people it might be something like going down a bobsled track after hours, or maybe something like cliff jumping or skiing out of bounds. For others, maybe it was taking drugs from unknown sources or having random unprotected sex.

oh totally.

Like I said in the bottom of my post, I've done tons of equally stupid stuff. I'm just surprised everyone on here is saying they wouldn't go spot the track. It would have been the first thing on my mind.

[DiracSpike]

I would have had no idea the gate was there.

If my friends suggested we go down that track I would have probably said yes, with 90% of my trepidations being over getting caught by security/charged with trespassing, not getting injured on the track

[corporatejay]

During one of the snow storms where we had a snow day my friends got towed behind a 4x4 with their snowboards.

We thought it was hilariously awesome. Now, reckless and stupid. People do dumb ####, all the time.

[foshizzle11]

Originally Posted by polak

oh totally.

Like I said in the bottom of my post, I've done tons of equally stupid stuff. I'm just surprised everyone on here is saying they wouldn't go spot the track. It would have been the first thing on my mind.

I agree with you. There was 2 other teens that were apparently there that likely thought it was too dangerous and bailed. Maybe they did a spot of the track, who knows.

I would have also thought about looking even when I was 17, that was just who I was. Always looking out for my friends even when they wanted to do stupid things. Everyone did reckless things but this IMO was over the line for me and my friends to try.

No parent should ever have to bury their child, I've seen what it can do to a family, no one should have to experience this.

Condolences to the family. These kids didn't deserve the outcome and it sounds like the survivors will have a tough life ahead of them. I will also be taking this opportunity to teach my step-sons something and have a discussion about this. It is important to learn from mistakes, unfortunately this one was deadly.

From an earlier poster, that 1m gap in the fence, could that leave WinSport liable for this if they could easily get into the facility?

[heep223]

I shudder at some of the things I did as a teenager. I can't believe we never got seriously injured.

We can all say that we would have looked down the track if we were them, at that age, but who knows.

Thoughts and prayers to all those effected, including the first responders and their families. This is devastating for a lot of people.

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by polak

Again, how on earth are people saying that they wouldn't expect a gate or obstacle on a CLOSED(!) bobsled track.

Because people in their daily lives, don't typically go to COP and have a run down the bobsled/luge tracks. I know I can have the experience there, if I pay for it, and at that point, I'd probably end up hearing about the gate and how they change things around depending on what track is being used at any given time. But until I'm there, taking in the experience, why would I expect to know about it? Until this accident occurred, I didn't know they split the tracks off. It's not exactly a topic of daily conversation, at least it wasn't until now.

Honestly, I would have presumed that if it was closed off anywhere, it would have been at the point of entrance, which could be the presumption made by these kids. Just because they worked on the hill, doesn't mean they had jack to do with the bobsled/luge runs, or knew exactly how they operate. I can't find a description for what the hill ambassador job entails, but just off the top of my head, I'd assume they were on the ski hill, looking after people there in some way.

Regardless, it's been a horrific weekend for many families and for those involved in aiding these kids after the horror, and those at the hill left to deal with cleaning up the aftermath. I'm not discounting the poor choice they all made or unable to recognize it but in the end, kids are dead and others horrifically injured and I guess that's where my heart goes - to them, their families and the others I mentioned. It's entirely possible to recognize both sides of this, without excoriating everyone involved.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...-deaths-lawyer



Ive seen a couple of other similar articles this morning.

I suspect lawsuits might be more likely from the survivors rather than from the family of the deceased.

I wonder if this was the first time these people slid down or if they had done it previously with success.

I think this sums it up from a legal point of view: Way too early to tell. One could imagine circumstances that would lead to liability, but that is all it is. Dreaming up hypotheticals doesn't really help the discussion, in my opinion.

[flamesfan1297]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

I honestly can't tell you one thing I remember doing that was extremely risky and reckless. I mean, it's not like I never had fun -- say for example, white water rafting. I did that as a teen, and it was fun. But we had proper equipment -- full size rafts, wet suits, life jackets, helmets, experienced leaders familiar with the river, etc. If a buddy would've suggested doing it by ourselves, at night, in an inner-tube, in nothing but my swimsuit (which would be the close comparable to this situation) there's no way I would've done it.

Maybe I was just boring, though.

Agreed. Yes I had fun as a teenager. By the time your at that age you should know enough to know what is safe and okay to do, and what is just plain dumb, and shouldn't be attempted. This is a sad and tragic event, and I feel horrible for all involved, but let's be honest, this isn't anyones fault except for those kids. COP should not be held responsible for this nor should anyone else. My heart goes out to all involved though, and hopefully this is a lesson learned for other kids.

[flamesfan1297]

Also I would like to say that even if there was a 1 metre gap in the fence, COP still shouldn't he held liable. Just because there is a gap in the fence doesn't mean you should go through it. The rest of the fence is there for a reason.

[taco.vidal]

From CPS today:

The Calgary Police Service continues to investigate a double fatality at the WinSport sliding track over the weekend.

As the investigation is ongoing, and several of the teens remain hospitalized and unable to speak with police, it may be several days before additional information is available. Specific medical information regarding the six injured teens will not be released.

Investigators continue to review CCTV footage from the area and are working in conjunction with the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner to determine what transpired before and during the incident.

The Service is committed to releasing additional details in the coming days.

And another statement from the family today about their sons.
http://newsroom.calgary.ca/additiona...rdan-caldwell/
Take a read. Cant copy/paste here due to formatting.