[Trade] Flames acquire Roman Horak and 2x 2011 2nd rd picks for Tim Erixon and 5th rd pick

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

You aren't allowed to have negotiations with other teams when you are still under contract.

That still would not stop him from going to UFA status. If he did not want to be here he could have waited it out. In no way do I see how Sutter had him over a barrel.

[FlamesAddiction]

That would explain why his heart seems to not be in it.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

That would explain why his heart seems to not be in it.

Well if his heart is not in being here then I hope he brings it to management so we can move him. Hell, I hope we move him anyhow.

[Flaming Horse]

Whatever the reason he is a ranger and not a flame. This one hurts a lot. We finally get a pick that can make a impact and we cant even sign him. This is a huge slap in the face of the flames org. He says they figure horak can play for the flames.Of course he does,What else is he gonna say. I hope he pans out but it is a long shot at best. Feaster said he was a player they had their eye on. Everyone else seems to think he is a long shot and probably wont even be a regular in the nhl. This is where we need to have a eye for talent and get these picks right. Feaster can put whatever spin he wants on horak being a good shot to make the club but iam not drinking that cool aid. This was a very dark day for the flames. Whether it was feasters fault or not things just keep getting worse instead of better. It would sure be nice if things started going in a positive direction. We sure need to nail this draft.

[chummer]

nm

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by troutman

This is complete hearsay, but I have heard that Jay did not want to sign with CGY, and had premature discussions with another team. Darryl found out about it, and had Jay over a barrel.

You have to laugh about the Darryl Sutter era. It was kind of like having a mob boss for a GM.

[Reign of Fire]

Originally Posted by Flaming Horse

Whatever the reason he is a ranger and not a flame. This one hurts a lot. We finally get a pick that can make a impact and we cant even sign him. This is a huge slap in the face of the flames org. He says they figure horak can play for the flames.Of course he does,What else is he gonna say. I hope he pans out but it is a long shot at best. Feaster said he was a player they had their eye on. Everyone else seems to think he is a long shot and probably wont even be a regular in the nhl. This is where we need to have a eye for talent and get these picks right. Feaster can put whatever spin he wants on horak being a good shot to make the club but iam not drinking that cool aid. This was a very dark day for the flames. Whether it was feasters fault or not things just keep getting worse instead of better. It would sure be nice if things started going in a positive direction. We sure need to nail this draft.

I think they should change the rules to if a player is offered the max under ELC, and refuses to sign with the team that drafted him, that player must wait a year before entering the draft again. Also if a team is offering a max allowed and still is unable to sign the player, the team should be compensated with the same pick in the draft. This would deter draft picks from refusing to sign.

And I agree that losing Erixon is a big loss, and I am not sold on Horak either, but hopefully I am wrong, and he turns into a regular NHLer for us.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

I think they should change the rules to if a player is offered the max under ELC, and refuses to sign with the team that drafted him, that player must wait a year before entering the draft again. Also if a team is offering a max allowed and still is unable to sign the player, the team should be compensated with the same pick in the draft. This would deter draft picks from refusing to sign.

And I agree that losing Erixon is a big loss, and I am not sold on Horak either, but hopefully I am wrong, and he turns into a regular NHLer for us.

The rule should be that you have x amount of years to sign your prospect, at the end of that time there should be a set qualifying offer like RFA and you retain your prospect. If he does not want to sign with a club then the club can either trade him and have the time to do so they need or he can wait until he reaches UFA status. Players entering the draft should not have any advantage in where they end up playing, it is not fair to the team who drafts them.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

edit: Eric doesn't like the way it went down and wants to know what really happened. Says it was a horrible deal for the Flames (not blaming Feaster) and that the Rangers are so high on Erixon that they think he will step in and be a top 4 defenseman right away. Said you can't prove anything but something stinks about what happened and it wasn't in the spirit of the collective bargaining agreement.

Pick any one or two of the following:

His dad, The head Euro scout Swede Andres Hedberg, his cousin/Swedish teammate who just signed for NY, Lundqvist, and the slimy Sather.

and I think its pretty clear that he was made aware of the Rangers interest in the past few months in drafting him if he went back in, and was hoodwinked by that crew into thinking he's "helping" Calgary by getting traded.

Any Rags RFA's that we can "Vanek" up the price on for Slats to match, by throwing out an offer sheet?

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

I think they should change the rules to if a player is offered the max under ELC, and refuses to sign with the team that drafted him, that player must wait a year before entering the draft again. Also if a team is offering a max allowed and still is unable to sign the player, the team should be compensated with the same pick in the draft. This would deter draft picks from refusing to sign.

And I agree that losing Erixon is a big loss, and I am not sold on Horak either, but hopefully I am wrong, and he turns into a regular NHLer for us.

This is actually a great suggestion. Draft picks should be thankful. Stupid loop holes like these hurt teams in the middle of the pack who have to work hard for the draft picks they have.

[Ring of Fire]

Originally Posted by browna

Any Rags RFA's that we can "Vanek" up the price on for Slats to match, by throwing out an offer sheet?

It'd be a nice way to get back at them but you have to be sure that they would match. The Flames need to keep their draft picks and depending on the price of the offer sheet the compensation the Flames would have to send back is immense.

GROUP 2 COMPENSATION CHART
OFFER SHEET COMPENSATION
$660,000 or below None
Over $660,000 to $1 million Third Round
Over $1 million to $2.0 million Second Round
Over $2.0 million to $3.0 million First Round and Third Round
Over $3.0 million to $4.0 million First Round, Second Round, and Third
Round
Over $4.0 million to $5.0 million Two First Rounds, Second Round, and
Third Round
Over $5 million Four First Rounds

As per CBA 05-06 (dollar figures are to be increased each year by percentage of average salary increase)

Since average salary has increased from $1.46 million (05-06) to $2.4 million (10-11), that is approx. 64% increase therefore compensation would change to approximately as follows:

GROUP 2 COMPENSATION CHART
OFFER SHEET COMPENSATION (approx. $ figures based on 64% increase)
$1,000,000 or below None
Over $1 million to $1.64 million Third Round
Over $1.64 million to $3.28 million Second Round
Over $3.28 million to $4.92 million First Round and Third Round
Over $4.92 million to $6.56 million First Round, Second Round, and Third
Round
Over $6.56 million to $8.2 million Two First Rounds, Second Round, and
Third Round
Over $8.2 million Four First Rounds

Scary to go after big RFAs because you lose a lot of picks. It would have to be a franchise player to make it worth it.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Flaming Horse

He says they figure horak can play for the flames.Of course he does,What else is he gonna say. I hope he pans out but it is a long shot at best. Feaster said he was a player they had their eye on. Everyone else seems to think he is a long shot and probably wont even be a regular in the nhl.

Duhatchek said today (when he was on with Kerr) that people around the league have told him that Horak's upside is probably a "good minor league player"...

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Duhatchek said today (when he was on with Kerr) that people around the league have told him that Horak's upside is probably a "good minor league player"...

and people around the league wouldn't sign Martin St. Louis because he was too small.

Horak's about to enter his first pro year, a guy with his skillset, you can't count him out until he's out.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

and people around the league wouldn't sign Martin St. Louis because he was too small.

Horak's about to enter his first pro year, a guy with his skillset, you can't count him out until he's out.

Sure, but a different era... people wouldn't overlook a St. Louis now...

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Ring of Fire

It'd be a nice way to get back at them but you have to be sure that they would match. The Flames need to keep their draft picks and depending on the price of the offer sheet the compensation the Flames would have to send back is immense.

GROUP 2 COMPENSATION CHART
OFFER SHEET COMPENSATION
$660,000 or below None
Over $660,000 to $1 million Third Round
Over $1 million to $2.0 million Second Round
Over $2.0 million to $3.0 million First Round and Third Round
Over $3.0 million to $4.0 million First Round, Second Round, and Third
Round
Over $4.0 million to $5.0 million Two First Rounds, Second Round, and
Third Round
Over $5 million Four First Rounds

As per CBA 05-06 (dollar figures are to be increased each year by percentage of average salary increase)

Since average salary has increased from $1.46 million (05-06) to $2.4 million (10-11), that is approx. 64% increase therefore compensation would change to approximately as follows:

GROUP 2 COMPENSATION CHART
OFFER SHEET COMPENSATION (approx. $ figures based on 64% increase)
$1,000,000 or below None
Over $1 million to $1.64 million Third Round
Over $1.64 million to $3.28 million Second Round
Over $3.28 million to $4.92 million First Round and Third Round
Over $4.92 million to $6.56 million First Round, Second Round, and Third
Round
Over $6.56 million to $8.2 million Two First Rounds, Second Round, and
Third Round
Over $8.2 million Four First Rounds

Scary to go after big RFAs because you lose a lot of picks. It would have to be a franchise player to make it worth it.

I think they will match 4.91 million on Dubinsky and Callahan this year. I believe both their contracts are up, and people are assuming they will sign for around 4 million. There is no way they would let Dubinsky and Callahan - NYR's fans 2 favorite players - just go.

[Ring of Fire]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I think they will match 4.91 million on Dubinsky and Callahan this year. I believe both their contracts are up, and people are assuming they will sign for around 4 million. There is no way they would let Dubinsky and Callahan - NYR's fans 2 favorite players - just go.

That's what I think two. Dubinsky would be a good fit for the Flames but not at much more than 4 million anyways which the Rangers would match.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Duhatchek said today (when he was on with Kerr) that people around the league have told him that Horak's upside is probably a "good minor league player"...

That is simply because he was a 5th round pick, It is not unheard of to have players progress as they get older is it?

He had a great year this season and certainly proved he has NHL potential, Horak's upside with his skillset is a 2nd line center/wing. And many NYR fans projected him to be a third line center down the line.

[Caged Great]

What Duha said isn't really out of line. Ideally he'd become good enough to be an NHLer, but really he's on track to become a decent AHLer. That's not a slight, but he has a ways to go to become an NHLer. All of our non NHL players have a long road to go to become NHLers, even ones like Brodie and Wahl. If they don't improve, they'll be "good minor league players" too.

[kirant]

For once, I agree with Duha. Most skilled players in Horak's draft area do just as well in the minors and don't become quality players. What really separates the wheat from the chaff is the ability to adjust their playstyle as they get into higher leagues and the competition gets better.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

I think they should change the rules to if a player is offered the max under ELC, and refuses to sign with the team that drafted him, that player must wait a year before entering the draft again.

In theory that sounds like a decent idea but in practice the effects of that rule change would be negligible. Erixon is the only post-lockout 1st rounder to refuse a bonafide offer from the team that drafted him. We see that many teams are pushing North American prospects to play in the CHL so they can be signed early. We see that many North American prospects are either going the CHL route or leaving college early in hopes of beginning their NHL careers as soon as possible. We also see European prospects sign with their NHL teams and get loaned back or make the jump to the AHL after a year. Many European prospects actually prefer to stay at least a year or two before heading over to North America as they prefer playing in Europe than in the CHL or AHL.

The biggest problem with your proposed rule change is that unlike prospects playing in the CHL and college, prospects playing in Europe get paid. You can force guys like Erixon to wait a year but it's really not much of a deterrance considering he can just play another year at home and earn a paycheck. The rule will deter prospects playing in the CHL from refusing to sign with the team that drafted him since many will be without a team to player for, but it really won't be much of a deterrance for Europeans.

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

Also if a team is offering a max allowed and still is unable to sign the player, the team should be compensated with the same pick in the draft. This would deter draft picks from refusing to sign.

How will that deter draft picks from refusing to sign? Why would a prospect care that the team would be compensated with the same pick in the draft?

Regardless, that rule will never fly. Imagine if a top 3 pick refused to sign and teams with top 3 picks gets bumped down. It'll be crazy and has the potential to be abused.

Originally Posted by Ring of Fire

It'd be a nice way to get back at them but you have to be sure that they would match. The Flames need to keep their draft picks and depending on the price of the offer sheet the compensation the Flames would have to send back is immense.

GROUP 2 COMPENSATION CHART
OFFER SHEET COMPENSATION

Your compensation chart is super outdated. The compensation changes every year depending on the cap. For example, the compensation for a player signing a $3M a year offer sheet last summer is only a 2nd rounder and the compensation for a player signing a $4.5M a year offer sheet was only a 1st and 3rd.