Atheism is a Religion (Split from Blessing Human Rights thread)

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by vektor

not yet at least. maybe we'll one day find a god particle that shows the only way the matter in the universe can possibly exist is because of divine intervention. Or maybe we create a mathematical formula that shows the infinite possibilities of matter and energy one of which our universe belongs to, something akin to a mandelbrot set with infinitely repeating geometry. Education in particle physics shows how little we actually know about the way the universe works. Study up on advanced quantum mechanics and you'll learn how anything could be possible.

That's pretty much my point. Although I didn't qualify my statement by saying "at this point in time". And your right, maybe some day we will find evidence one way or the other, but even then, given the hugely complex nature of particle physics and quantum mechanics, there will be people on both sides (theists and atheists) that don't believe the science is accurate or complete and that a future discovery will prove it untrue. Given that most of quantum physics these days is a theory, albeit a good one with lots of supporting evidence no doubt, but still a theory that could potentially be demonstrated incorrect with some future discovery (even if the existing models works great for practical purposes), we have a tremendously long way to go before there would be enough evidence to convince people on either side of a/theist to change their beliefs. It's possible it could happen, but I wouldn't expect it in the next century.

[vektor]

I wouldn't call quantum mechanics good theory. It's at best an intermediate between relativity and GUT (grand unified theory) and at worst incredibly misleading on the nature of reality while slowing the progress of physics significantly

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by vektor

I wouldn't call quantum mechanics good theory. It's at best intermediate between relativity and GUT (grand unified theory) and at worst incredibly misleading on the nature of reality.

I should really do more research on this. Seeing GUT is just a step along the way towards the goal of a TOE (Theory of Everything), models have a long ways to go.

String theory looks like an interesting TOE.

[drhu22]

Originally Posted by Knalus

Um, it should count as one. Practitioners sure treat it like one.

Its all semantics isnt it?
Who cares?
What matters is how you feel about yourself.

For me one of the most powerful thoughts is realising that i didnt have any choice in whether i ended up here. I was just cast here. Wich means to me that something outside my understanding and greater than me put me here. Humility seems appropriate.

[pylon]

One of the points of being Atheist, is to give an easy name to denounce your faith in god.

Instead of saying ,"Sorry, I do not believe in god or religion."

You just say ,"I'm Atheist."

So no, not in a million years is it a religion. However, I may be agnostic. I am still trying to figure that out.

A little off topic, but let the religious experts answer this. If I believe there may be an unexplainable scientific element to the afterlife, that modern science currently could never explain or our minds simply couldn't perceive, yet do not believe in any gods per se, what does that make me? Think of it as I believe the human mind/soul is like a form of energy, and I don't necessarily believe it just deletes when you die. I am open to the idea that something happens with that energy perhaps in a higher plane of existence, or another dimension. Is that agnostic? Or am I still an Atheist?

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by pylon

One of the points of being Atheist, is to give an easy name to denounce your faith in god.

Instead of saying ,"Sorry, I do not believe in god or religion."

You just say ,"I'm Atheist."

So no, not in a million years is it a religion. However, I may be agnostic. I am still trying to figure that out.

A little off topic, but let the religious experts answer this. If I believe there may be an unexplainable scientific element to the afterlife, that modern science currently could never explain or our minds simply couldn't perceive, yet do not believe in any gods per se, what does that make me? Think of it as I believe the human mind/soul is like a form of energy, and I don't necessarily believe it just deletes when you die. I am open to the idea that something happens with that energy perhaps in a higher plane of existence, or another dimension. Is that agnostic? Or am I still an Atheist?

That's definitely more agnostic than atheist. In fact, it could be a type of theism, you'd just have to find a philosophy you agree with more or less.

Of course, that raises the question about the difference of religion v philosophy again.

It's (your theory, more or less) an idea that I always found comforting. Course if the energy did transfer or evolve, what would happen to your personality or sense of self? It would most like be gone too, so you wouldn't really 'know' one way or another.

Course it could be replaced with something else. Like a sense of 'oneness' with all other energy per se. Or an overwhelming wisdom and peace (through the greater understanding or perspective). It's a popular enough idea.

[drhu22]

Originally Posted by Daradon

That's definitely more agnostic than atheist. In fact, it could be a type of theism, you'd just have to find a philosophy you agree with more or less.

Of course, that raises the question about the difference of religion v philosophy again.

It's (your theory, more or less) an idea that I always found comforting. Course if the energy did transfer or evolve, what would happen to your personality or sense of self? It would most like be gone too, so you wouldn't really 'know' one way or another.

Course it could be replaced with something else. Like a sense of 'oneness' with all other energy per se. Or an overwhelming wisdom and peace (through the greater understanding or perspective). It's a popular enough idea.

You guys are trying to solve zen with algebra.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by drhu22

You guys are trying to solve zen with algebra.

Haha, I don't know enough about zen OR algebra.

Like I said, more of just a comforting, interesting thought. Kindof that armchair type spirituality.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by pylon

One of the points of being Atheist, is to give an easy name to denounce your faith in god.

Instead of saying ,"Sorry, I do not believe in god or religion."

You just say ,"I'm Atheist."

So no, not in a million years is it a religion. However, I may be agnostic. I am still trying to figure that out.

A little off topic, but let the religious experts answer this. If I believe there may be an unexplainable scientific element to the afterlife, that modern science currently could never explain or our minds simply couldn't perceive, yet do not believe in any gods per se, what does that make me? Think of it as I believe the human mind/soul is like a form of energy, and I don't necessarily believe it just deletes when you die. I am open to the idea that something happens with that energy perhaps in a higher plane of existence, or another dimension. Is that agnostic? Or am I still an Atheist?

Doesn't that fall within the realm of spirituality? I always felt the Atheistic dogma was a disbelief in all things spiritual. I think imparting qualities other than the bare biological functions to the brain, heart, or other human body parts is a spiritual undertaking.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Doesn't that fall within the realm of spirituality? I always felt the Atheistic dogma was a disbelief in all things spiritual. I think imparting qualities other than the bare biological functions to the brain, heart, or other human body parts is a spiritual undertaking.

Well that's what he's asking about. Spirituality obviously falls within the realm of theism. Course I get kinda bent about peoples misunderstanding between religion and spirituality, but religion does serve to (try and) answer the spiritual questions. Besides it's other more darker and political purposes.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Daradon

That's definitely more agnostic than atheist. In fact, it could be a type of theism, you'd just have to find a philosophy you agree with more or less.

Of course, that raises the question about the difference of religion v philosophy again.

It's (your theory, more or less) an idea that I always found comforting. Course if the energy did transfer or evolve, what would happen to your personality or sense of self? It would most like be gone too, so you wouldn't really 'know' one way or another.

Course it could be replaced with something else. Like a sense of 'oneness' with all other energy per se. Or an overwhelming wisdom and peace (through the greater understanding or perspective). It's a popular enough idea.

To me it isn't trying to match it to anything. And I certainly don't necessarily believe my theory. I hold the belief more that when you die... die. I am simply open to the idea, that things may be bigger and more complex than we may know.

In a perfect world, we become like Q, and just kind gallop the cosmos at will, getting all the answers, whilst becoming a thorn in the Enterprise-D crews side....lol.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by pylon

To me it isn't trying to match it to anything. And I certainly don't necessarily believe my theory. I hold the belief more that when you die... die. I am simply open to the idea, that things may be bigger and more complex than we may know.

In a perfect world, we become like Q, and just kind gallop the cosmos at will, getting all the answers, whilst becoming a thorn in the Enterprise-D crews side....lol.

Oh yeah, I wasn't saying that was your belief, I realized it was more of a 'what if', I was just responding to the idea. And basically answering the question that thoughts or feelings like that would probably be more agnostic than atheist.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Oh yeah, I wasn't saying that was your belief, I realized it was more of a 'what if', I was just responding to the idea.

But if you are even .001% open to the idea that there may be an unexplainable form of afterlife, does that disqualify you from Atheism?

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by pylon

But if you are even .001% open to the idea that there may be an unexplainable form of afterlife, does that disqualify you from Atheism?

I would say in theory yes, though I would imagine that it really all depends on how you want to define it and yourself.

As even people in this thread are defining it differently and 'experts' are defining it slightly differently, I guess you get to decide how, if at all, you want to label yourself.

Atheists believe in no god and therefore no afterlife. Though, there does not have to be a god to be an afterlife I suppose. However, it's still a spiritual notion that hints at some sort of larger plan being behind things. If you are open to ideas like that, even slightly I'd say that's agnosticism. But if it's only at such a small level that you are basically just saying 'hey, I'm pretty sure I'm right, but I don't have the ego to conclude that I am,' like your 0..001 example, it's probably correct to call yourself an atheist too. In fact I think Photon's chart had a section for that.

EDIT: Yeah, agnostic-atheist. Doesn't believe in god, but doesn't claim 100% certainty. Page three. But since that classification uses both the terms, I guess it's all in how you want to define yourself. I've never seen that chart before, it does make sense, but I've also seen people explain it differently. At this point your probably splitting hairs.

I guess it also means that certain viewpoints don't necessarily exclude (preclude?) other viewpoints.

[pylon]

Cool, thanks.

I will call myself an Athogneist then.

[Roast Beef]

Originally Posted by pylon

But if you are even .001% open to the idea that there may be an unexplainable form of afterlife, does that disqualify you from Atheism?

Nope. Atheism is simply the lack of a belief in god(s). Other than that, it has no tenants, scriptures or any other qualifications.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Well that's what he's asking about. Spirituality obviously falls within the realm of theism. Course I get kinda bent about peoples misunderstanding between religion and spirituality, but religion does serve to (try and) answer the spiritual questions. Besides it's other more darker and political purposes.

I guess I was just answering that question - if you were to make a Venn diagram of Atheism and spirituality there won't be any overlap.

Religion aside, there is no difference between believing in God or believing in some phenomen that you haven't witnessed but would like to think happens (e.g. a person's consciousness floats around without a physical body). So I don't know how somebody could describe themselves as an atheist while having spiritual beliefs.

I won't put words into people's mouths, but if they believe that some part of them continues on, that would suggest some kind of supernatural being pulling the strings on that. Since all conventional forms of energy or matter could be explained, then something unexplainable and unknowable needs to be the driving force for keeping these souls and consciousnesses afloat wherever they are.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I guess I was just answering that question - if you were to make a Venn diagram of Atheism and spirituality there won't be any overlap.

Religion aside, there is no difference between believing in God or believing in some phenomen that you haven't witnessed but would like to think happens (e.g. a person's consciousness floats around without a physical body). So I don't know how somebody could describe themselves as an atheist while having spiritual beliefs.

I won't put words into people's mouths, but if they believe that some part of them continues on, that would suggest some kind of supernatural being pulling the strings on that. Since all conventional forms of energy or matter could be explained, then something unexplainable and unknowable needs to be the driving force for keeping these souls and consciousnesses afloat wherever they are.

Erm well, I think I recall that spirituality is basically the answer to (or the process on how to answer) the basic human questions. Who am I? How did I get here? And, What is my purpose for being here? Many people answer these through religion or some sort of belief structure, but they don't have to be. Also, like agnostics people can just say, I don't know, I'm still looking. Which we all are in our own ways. Even the most devout often says, 'Why am I here?' As well people can have spiritual experiences while still knowing what is occurring behind the experience. IE feeling a sense of joy and belonging after witnessing a rainbow or something.

As you mentioned, I don't want to put words in other peoples mouths either, and I would tend to agree with the part of your post that I bolded. But with spirituality being such a broad term I could see it argued other ways.

[pylon]

Well, on a scientific level, we are immortal, and are made up of matter billion of years old, and when our sun goes nova, and evaporates whatever remains of us, there is a chance that matter will be absorbed in a stellar disk that will spawn another star, that may spawn life etc.......

I Am more looking at the idea that physics and string theory model currently suggets there is 10 or 11 dimensions, whichever one you buy into. And we have no clue what happens in those upper dimensions (past 4 if you consider time to be one) if they exist. I could be open to a scientific explanation that the answer to an afterlife, may be held there. There is a lot of strange phenomena and brain activity anomalies that have been observed in people's brains at the moment of death that may be more than just a spike in brain activity.

Meh, who knows. Every time I lose someone close to me, I have trouble accepting they are just.... gone. And always hope there is that remote chance they are still sentient in some way. I guess I can kiss off the idea of sleep tonight... Lol

[Cube Inmate]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I guess I was just answering that question - if you were to make a Venn diagram of Atheism and spirituality there won't be any overlap.

Religion aside, there is no difference between believing in God or believing in some phenomen that you haven't witnessed but would like to think happens (e.g. a person's consciousness floats around without a physical body). So I don't know how somebody could describe themselves as an atheist while having spiritual beliefs.

I won't put words into people's mouths, but if they believe that some part of them continues on, that would suggest some kind of supernatural being pulling the strings on that. Since all conventional forms of energy or matter could be explained, then something unexplainable and unknowable needs to be the driving force for keeping these souls and consciousnesses afloat wherever they are.

The bolded part above is a bit presumptuous. We have two well-known forms of matter/energy that aren't even remotely understood yet in the cosmological arena --dark matter & dark energy. Furthermore, we have this amazing thing called "consciousness" that we can't even come close to explaining scientifically yet. Am I foolishly optimistic to think that there's something more to my consciousness than simply a mush of brain cells? Probably...but I'm certainly not smart enough to know that for sure. I don't have to believe in a god to be open to the possibility that there's "something" I don't know about death.

Oh, and for some other posters...WRGMG is this:

TENET: any opinion, principle, doctrine, dogma, etc., especially one held as true by members of a profession, group, or movement.

TENANT: a person or group that rents and occupies land, a house, an office, or the like, from another for a period of time; lessee.