Should/Will the Flames keep Ward

[btimbit]

Remember when they said they wanted to come to a conclusion regarding Ward really quickly? Wasn't that like almost a month ago?

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Originally Posted by btimbit

Remember when they said they wanted to come to a conclusion regarding Ward really quickly? Wasn't that like almost a month ago?

Could be they've come to their conclusion, one of these:

1. Ward isn't the coach next year, but they're not announcing anything until the new coach is hired

Or

2. Ward's moving back to an assistant/associate role, bit the head coach isn't picked/signed yet

Or

3. They've decided to offer Ward the head coach job but he hasn't accepted it yet, maybe he wants to explore other options that could come up with other teams?


Basically what I'm saying is it's fine to talk about desiring a quick decision, but then having other people or factors delay it. Really as long as they have one hired by free agency or so I'm not worried it's taking a while.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah you don't spend to the cap and buy out players if you are ok with mediocrity.

Wining is hard. Very very hard.

Treliving has a cost controlled core that isn't getting it done. He now has to decide what % of that is a missing piece (maybe goaltending), what % is coaching in the last two years, and what % is the need to change the core, alter the chemistry, or shift strengths on the roster from one area to another.

Choosing a route that is different than joe hockey fan doesn't mean the management group or ownership are happy with mediocrity. It just means they have a differing view that you.

There is a great example of how hard winning is about 3 hours north. Gifted a generational talent, three other first overalls and multiple other top 10 picks. All that and they are still mediocre.

Winning requires lots of smarts and a big dose of luck (injuries, late picks hitting). The Oilers have had all the luck, but not much going on in the smarts department. The Flames have done okay (not great) with smarts, but haven't had Oilers type luck.

Regardless I have a hard time believing either ownership group wants anything less than to win.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Remember when they said they wanted to come to a conclusion regarding Ward really quickly? Wasn't that like almost a month ago?

It was two weeks, but the point stands. The time this has taken makes it pretty clear to me that Treliving is exploring other coaching options. If Ward was his guy he would have been promoted by now. He may still be, but I think at this point as an alternative plan in the event that Treliving does not get the coach he wants.

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[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It was two weeks, but the point stands. The time this has taken makes it pretty clear to me that Treliving is exploring other coaching options. If Ward was his guy he would have been promoted by now. He may still be, but I think at this point as an alternative plan in the event that Treliving does not get the coach he wants.

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Your read makes the most sense.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah you don't spend to the cap and buy out players if you are ok with mediocrity.

Wining is hard. Very very hard.

Treliving has a cost controlled core that isn't getting it done. He now has to decide what % of that is a missing piece (maybe goaltending), what % is coaching in the last two years, and what % is the need to change the core, alter the chemistry, or shift strengths on the roster from one area to another.

Choosing a route that is different than joe hockey fan doesn't mean the management group or ownership are happy with mediocrity. It just means they have a differing view that you.

Nothing about making it to the NHL is easy for sure. But winning is the job. Even the Coyotes have won more playoff games than this franchise in the last 10 years. I think it’s fair to evaluate an organization’s performance against their peers and these Flames and the folks making the decisions on hockey operations are faring much worse than their competition.

Wonder if there’s a chance we get another Brian Burke incoming. Personally I have little remaining confidence in the folks calling the shots right now to be able to successfully change course.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

There is a great example of how hard winning is about 3 hours north. Gifted a generational talent, three other first overalls and multiple other top 10 picks. All that and they are still mediocre.

Winning requires lots of smarts and a big dose of luck (injuries, late picks hitting). The Oilers have had all the luck, but not much going on in the smarts department. The Flames have done okay (not great) with smarts, but haven't had Oilers type luck.

Regardless I have a hard time believing either ownership group wants anything less than to win.

I posted this in the Edmonton No Good topic earlier this week, but it fits here too.

The article compared the Oilers build to the Bolts and how the Oilers haven't had the same success with most areas.

Calgary's fit Tampa's more closely, but with one huge caveat ... less bang for buck from their first round picks.



Digging in Backlund was a great pick for where he fell in the first round that year. Jankowski is at least a player, not terrible for later in the first round.

Tkachuk clearly the best first round pick in a long long time.

Issue one has been the impact from first round picks in the top ten. Nothing wrong with Monahan as a draft pick, he was the consensus guy in the draft at that point (and they ended up with the other guy on the board in a trade). But he hasn't turned into an elite play driving star.

Bennett is middle six to bottom six and a whiff, but not one from choosing the wrong player.

Bottom line Calgary hasn't gotten enough bang from their top ten buck.

Then issue two is UFA signings that is masked in this summary as Neal and Brouwer took away a lot of cap space and hurt them badly.

But they've done well in the trade and 2-7 rounds of the draft.

If one of Monahan or Bennett turned into true elite play driving centers they just don't have the issues of the day (clearly everyone knows this)

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Nothing about making it to the NHL is easy for sure. But winning is the job. Even the Coyotes have won more playoff games than this franchise in the last 10 years. I think it’s fair to evaluate an organization’s performance against their peers and these Flames and the folks making the decisions on hockey operations are faring much worse than their competition.

Wonder if there’s a chance we get another Brian Burke incoming. Personally I have little remaining confidence in the folks calling the shots right now to be able to successfully change course.

They certainly haven't built a team that can win in the playoffs, no point in arguing that.

And having a Treliving must go angle is certainly an acceptable response when the core he's largely built stalls.

But making the playoffs essentially 3 of the last 4 years and 4 of the last 6 must have some positives in comparison to the 30 other franchises.

[Flash Walken]

Tampa traded their 3rd overall pick for a top pairing young defender.

I've seen jiri post this recently as well about Bennett.

Bennett not turning out isn't the problem, it's not moving him for a significant asset that is the problem.

It comes down to poor talent evaluation which is what plagues the majority of trelivings bad decision making.

The problem isn't Bennett not turning it out, it's the organization not using him as a trade chip when his value was high.

Making the playoffs can't possibly be a marker for success at this point when the results have been a 4 game sweep, a 5 game blowout and a record setting 7 unanswered goals in an elimination game.

Winning 3 playoff games in 4 years as any kind of positive indicator is some Stockholm syndrome type stuff. The bar is on the floor here.

NHL.com is all screwed up incorporating the stupid play in round as part of the playoffs this year so it's not super simple to look at, but 3 playoff wins in the last 5 years must be in the bottom 1/4 of the league.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It was two weeks, but the point stands. The time this has taken makes it pretty clear to me that Treliving is exploring other coaching options. If Ward was his guy he would have been promoted by now. He may still be, but I think at this point as an alternative plan in the event that Treliving does not get the coach he wants.

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I tend to agree with this as well, but it makes just as much sense to me that Treliving is just waiting for people to start cooling down and set those pitchforks down before announcing Ward as the head coach.



Heck, maybe Treliving is busy making a golem and is trying to collect the essence from all the top coaches from all the major team sports in the world and is creating his own super coach. That explains the delay as he is hunting these coaches down but being somewhat hampered by the pandemic related travel restrictions. If I was a betting man, this is where I would put all my money on.



I guess we will find out when it happens, as there doesn't seem to be even a whisper of a rumour coming from anywhere right now like it is for the Caps. That's probably a good thing organizationally... annoying, but a good thing.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Tampa traded their 3rd overall pick for a top pairing young defender.

I've seen jiri post this recently as well about Bennett.

Bennett not turning out isn't the problem, it's not moving him for a significant asset that is the problem.

It comes down to poor talent evaluation which is what plagues the majority of trelivings bad decision making.

The problem isn't Bennett not turning it out, it's the organization not using him as a trade chip when his value was high.

Making the playoffs can't possibly be a marker for success at this point when the results have been a 4 game sweep, a 5 game blowout and a record setting 7 unanswered goals in an elimination game.

Winning 3 playoff games in 4 years as any kind of positive indicator is some Stockholm syndrome type stuff. The bar is on the floor here.

NHL.com is all screwed up incorporating the stupid play in round as part of the playoffs this year so it's not super simple to look at, but 3 playoff wins in the last 5 years must be in the bottom 1/4 of the league.

25th in the league over the last five years. 18th in the league over the last three.

[Flash Walken]

2015 is the most successful flames season post lockout.

It's built on Feasters draft picks, feasters coach, feasters signings and feasters trades.

Treliving has been on the job less than a year when the playoffs started and had made the following additions to the roster:

Bollig for a 3rd
Drew Shore for Corban Knight

Trelivings tenure in Calgary will have a hangover on the franchise for at least a decade.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

25th in the league over the last five years. 18th in the league over the last three.

Absolutely terrible.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Tampa traded their 3rd overall pick for a top pairing young defender.

I've seen jiri post this recently as well about Bennett.

Bennett not turning out isn't the problem, it's not moving him for a significant asset that is the problem.

It comes down to poor talent evaluation which is what plagues the majority of trelivings bad decision making.

The problem isn't Bennett not turning it out, it's the organization not using him as a trade chip when his value was high.

Making the playoffs can't possibly be a marker for success at this point when the results have been a 4 game sweep, a 5 game blowout and a record setting 7 unanswered goals in an elimination game.

Winning 3 playoff games in 4 years as any kind of positive indicator is some Stockholm syndrome type stuff. The bar is on the floor here.

NHL.com is all screwed up incorporating the stupid play in round as part of the playoffs this year so it's not super simple to look at, but 3 playoff wins in the last 5 years must be in the bottom 1/4 of the league.

The ditch to ditch stuff just drives me nuts.

Did I say they were a model franchise? I've mentioned three times today that the Treliving must go crowd has ample reason to think they way they think.

I'm just saying if you review teams against peers there are levels, and there are certainly teams that have sputtered worse than the Flames in the last five seasons.

And Bennett.

You need to move him before he started to decay to get the value you suggest possible. Sure Tampa moved Drouin for a good young defenseman, but that trade was shock the day it happened. Terrible move for Montreal.

So it comes down to deciding Bennett wouldn't work out after his rookie season, which I doubt many would.

[timbit]

In the regular season, 12th over the last 3 seasons, 18th over the last 5 seasons.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The ditch to ditch stuff just drives me nuts.

Did I say they were a model franchise? I've mentioned three times today that the Treliving must go crowd has ample reason to think they way they think.

I'm just saying if you review teams against peers there are levels, and there are certainly teams that have sputtered worse than the Flames in the last five seasons.

And Bennett.

You need to move him before he started to decay to get the value you suggest possible. Sure Tampa moved Drouin for a good young defenseman, but that trade was shock the day it happened. Terrible move for Montreal.

So it comes down to deciding Bennett wouldn't work out after his rookie season, which I doubt many would.

There are 5 teams that's have sputtered worse than Calgary.

5.

If you're one more of the worst 6 teams in the league and had made the least amount of draft picks of any of them, just what level compared to peers do you think that is?

It might be THE WORST team in the league at that point.

'not a model franchise', is probably not the most fitting critique someone could come up with.

[dino7c]

Back on topic, what's the rush? We don't even know when the next season will be

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

There are 5 teams that's have sputtered worse than Calgary.

5.

If you're one more of the worst 6 teams in the league and had made the least amount of draft picks of any of them, just what level compared to peers do you think that is?

It might be THE WORST team in the league at that point.

'not a model franchise', is probably not the most fitting critique someone could come up with.

When would have been the most opportune time to trade Bennett in your opinion? He had a great first playoffs, the next season was good, he didn’t improve the next season much so would that be when you move on? I dunno, I think Tre’s bands were tied a bit, giving up on a prospect at 22 years old with such high draft pedigree issues tough.

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I very much doubt that this is the mandate from ownership. More than likely these guys want the Flames to win more than any of us.

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It literally is the mandate from ownership.

It has been since Sutter was the GM. When Feaster took over, I listened intently to his first press conference, hoping like hell to hear something fresh. And nope, mandate is playoffs every year. That's what ownership asked of the GM when he came in. So no fresh approach, no rebuild, no sell-off. Playoffs or bust. Every year.

Sutter sold off draft picks for players to hold this line. Feaster walked into an empty closet and had to sort it out AND keep the team in the playoffs. The mess he walked into was unbelievable. And he did... okay... at sorting it out. There's a few obvious things he totally blew too. And Tre still had some bad contracts and bad players to unload or wait out. And the mandate the whole time is "make the playoffs". Ken King was absolutely transparent about this in many interviews. It's the philosophy of an ownership group that knows fans will show up year after year. It's not that they don't WANT to win, they do. But they won't make any sacrifices to do it, they didn't trade Iginla while he had value. They won't trade Gio while he has value. They won't take a step back to take 2 steps forward. They haven't in 20 years.

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Originally Posted by dino7c

Back on topic, what's the rush? We don't even know when the next season will be

They will definitely plan for, schedule assuming there is, and in general put plans in motion for a 2020/2021 season. Now that may not start until January, or even February, and likely in empty arenas, on a weird schedule that minimizes travel, etc, etc.

But I think it's a low probability that there's no season at all for "2020/2021". Worst case I'd say is they start one, and have a pause again due to an infection spike.