FOX News Beats the War Drum Once Again

[Jebus]

Lol.
Man, I just opened this thread and skimmed it and can't believe how fast it has degenerated into a name-calling pi$$ing match based on political affiliation.
Maybe once the MODs lock this thread we can start some new ones on Abortion, Religion and Gay Marriages!
What fun!

calm down boys and girls. Take a breather.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Jebus

Lol.
Man, I just opened this thread and skimmed it and can't believe how fast it has degenerated into a name-calling pi$$ing match based on political affiliation.
Maybe once the MODs lock this thread we can start some new ones on Abortion, Religion and Gay Marriages!
What fun!

calm down boys and girls. Take a breather.

Sadly...most political threads turn that way these days here on CP.

It only takes one person to screw everything up.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Bingo

North America is split down the middle man. Middle. That's 300,000,000 people. If you think most of those 150,000,000 are logical and only three of the other half are worth listening too then you are truly in the dark.

Well, to get this discussion back on a track (although not necessarily the original one), I take issue with the idea that there are two sides at all. That idea is a pernicious construct that does nothing to illuminate issues and much to obscure them; especially in America where it seems that no one can speak about anything without getting labelled as either a knuckle-dragging, jesus-jumping right-winger or else a hypocritical, sanctimonious liberal. It's not all that much better in Canada, mind you, but I think much of that devolves from the overheated atmosphere south of the border spilling over into our minds like tentacles of living smog.

Personally, on some issues I tend towards views that would be labelled "conservative", on other issues I tend towards what would be deemed "liberal". Does this mean I am in the centre? NO! That's just a label that doesn't tell you anything - it gives you absolutely no information on how I feel about any particular issue. For the majority of people THAT is where they stand, somewhere in this mythical middle, where it's possible to be a born-again Christian but work for Greenpeace, or a Marxist professor who is against abortion.

I wish we could just discard this bipolar idiocy and talk about issues without having to bring out the swords of ideology to fight pointless battles again and again. Right and left are models that mean nothing important, you can go back to Swift and his satire on the Big-Endians and Little-Endians to see how such arbitrary divisions do nothing but divide to no purpose; that they never have had any purpose; that they never will.

In this specific instance, I don't care that Fox considers itself "right", I just care that in so many cases they allow their allegiance to that idea to reject anything they see as "left", regardless of its intrinsic worth or truth, and worse, to assume that because an opinion is "conservative" it is not only undoubtely correct but also worthy of distorting the facts to support. That's what you get in a bi-polar world - "my country (or race; system; ideology; religion), right or wrong" and similar stupidities that stifle thought for conformity.

A pox on both their houses. If you reek of the heresy of "wingism", expect no fair hearing from me; you are tainted with a world-view that automatically puts your discriminatory capabilities in question. Stop thinking every question has different answers that lie along some imaginary continuum of opinion - the world is too complex to be divided into only two parts.

[Save Us Sutter]

^^^ Someone give this man an award.

Fact: Radical right-wingers are illogical morons
Fact: Radical left-wingers are illogical morons
Fact: The majority (I hope) that may "lean" one way or another are still smart enough to look at an issue with an open-mind instead of jumping to their "side".
Conclusion: Making generalizations about either side of the spectrum only serves to identify you as a member of one of the first two groups.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

So apparantly it is a bad idea to talk about 1) Religion 2) Politics and 3) FOX News....

Back on the Iran topic...it seems that Iran is a country with two poplulations

Which is the true Iran—the consumer-oriented young, bored by the slogans of a long-ago revolution and impatient to move on? Or the regime faithful chorusing the familiar slogans at Friday prayers?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Excellent post by jammies. The first tenet of control is to manage the size of herd, breaking it up into segments whee the numbers are easier to handle. The labeling and breaking people into groups, and making them associate with that group, makes them inherently easier to manipulate. Divide and conquor.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by vicphoenix13

I do lean to the left, but I am not some radical who attends PETA and Greenpeace meetings. The honest truth is that most people who think logically and pragmatically tend to lean to the left. That's not to say there aren't Conservatives who use commonsense. Lindsay Graham, Chuck Hagel and John McCain usually have logical and coherent arguments to make. I follow politics enough in Canada and the U.S. to make an informed opinion.

Wow, in all of the time I have been on this site I don't think I have read such an ignorant statement. Congratulations.

Since your such an intellectual can you help us dumb right leaning people out with some references to studies that back up this incredibly well thought out claim?

I gotta go now, I need to call my university and inform them they shouldn't have given me a degree because I'm unable to build up a ogical and coherent arguement.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Wow, in all of the time I have been on this site I don't think I have read such an ignorant statement. Congratulations.

Since your such an intellectual can you help us dumb right leaning people out with some references to studies that back up this incredibly well thought out claim?

I gotta go now, I need to call my university and inform them they shouldn't have given me a degree because I'm unable to build up a ogical and coherent arguement.

Come on--you must not have been around very long if THAT's the most ignorant statement you've read! Heck, I've MADE one or two more ignorant statements, and read quite a few--that's the nature of a discussion board, you have to sort the wheat from the chaff without taking too much of it personally. Which is my way of saying--hang on to your degree, Ghenghis--I'm sure vicphoenix regrets his overgeneralization, and would back down if we gave him a graceful path to doing so.

As for sources, it was John Stuart Mill who said "It's not true that all conservatives are stupid. But it is true that most stupid people are conservative." I suspect even he was being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but it was also his way of saying that the Hobbeses and Burkes of the world were smart guys too, just ones with different worldviews than he himself professed.

But Lanny's right--the "right/left" dichotomy in the states is one of the key ways in which the discourse is controlled. The fact is, the idea that Americans fall easily into "red state/blue state" categories is a bit silly. There's a giant middle into which most people fall, and they're the ones who are scratching their head at the fact the the GOP and the Dems seem to be running for president of two very different countries.

That's not to say that there's no difference between conservatism and liberalism--though these are terms that are always historically specific--their meaning changes over time. I forget who it was who gave this summation of the key difference: Conservatism is based on the ethic of personal responsibility. Liberalism is based on the ethic of progress in the collective.

Both are valuable ways of thinking that shouldn't exclude one another. But you can see how it results in conservatives thinking that liberals are naive namby-pambys who want to reward laziness and punish those who work for themselves, and how liberals think conservatives are mean-spirited jerks who refuse to honor their responsibility to the collective. The key is to find ways to make these ethics work together rather than at contrary purposes.

Which brings us back to FoxNews, the original topic of the thread. They are among the worst purveyors of the simplistic rhetoric of left and right in this country. (and yes, I do watch it from time to time). FoxNews really is divisive and silly--not to mention mean spirited in their attacks on the "liberal media." That liberal media is an invention of FoxNews, created to be the straw man in their millenarian, conservative agenda, which is neo-conservative to the core. It's no surprise that they parrot Bush administration talking points. These guys recognize in the Paul Wolfowitzes and Karl Roves of the world their true fellow travelers in the political world.

Which is all to say: take all media outlets with a grain of salt. Take FoxNews with a boulder.

[Azure]

Thing is...both sides make that generalization. I hate it too.

Everytime some idiot tells he is is 'proud' to be from a red state I want to punch him in the face.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Thing is...both sides make that generalization. I hate it too.

Everytime some idiot tells he is is 'proud' to be from a red state I want to punch him in the face.

It's a generalization that makes no sense no matter how you slice it. But it may be an effect of a political system that gives people only two parties and calls that "choice." I'll say only this about the red state/blue state myth: the real divide in America is urban vs. rural, and what determines red state versus blue states is the extent to which voters in that state live in the city.

Which makes California's referendum on dividing their electoral college votes by congressional district a VERY interesting development. The democrats will oppose it--just as the GOP opposed and opposes the same idea in Colorado. But if both parties agreed to it, it might make for a very different dynamic in American politics. At least it would do away with the idea that there are red states and blue states, which a glance at a detailed electoral map will tell you is nonsense.

[vicphoenix13]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Wow, in all of the time I have been on this site I don't think I have read such an ignorant statement. Congratulations.

Since your such an intellectual can you help us dumb right leaning people out with some references to studies that back up this incredibly well thought out claim?

I gotta go now, I need to call my university and inform them they shouldn't have given me a degree because I'm unable to build up a ogical and coherent arguement.

I knew someone would take offense especially considering there's alot of Harper supporters in Alberta. To be fair, I wasn't really talking about Canadian Conservatives. Although I would never vote for Harper, atleast he can make a logical argument for a decision he makes. For example, he made a good point about protecting Canadian sovereignty in the Arctic when he increased military spending. The problem I have is with some American Conservatives who give misguided and false arguments. For example, G.W. Bush keeps linking Saddam and Al-Qaeda to defend the Iraq invasion even though there was no link. In fact, chaos created by the U.S. invasion allowed Al-Qaeda to move into Iraq and cause alot of problems.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by vicphoenix13

I knew someone would take offense especially considering there's alot of Harper supporters in Alberta. To be fair, I wasn't really talking about Canadian Conservatives. Although I would never vote for Harper, atleast he can make a logical argument for a decision he makes. For example, he made a good point about protecting Canadian sovereignty in the Arctic when he increased military spending. The problem I have is with some American Conservatives who give misguided and false arguments. For example, G.W. Bush keeps linking Saddam and Al-Qaeda to defend the Iraq invasion even though there was no link. In fact, chaos created by the U.S. invasion allowed Al-Qaeda to move into Iraq and cause alot of problems.

I can count on one hand the number of posters in this forum who have tried to make or support that link over the last 5 years. We've had quite a number of participants on both sides of this debate and in dozens of threads too.