Defending Marriage & the Family

[snowdude]

Originally posted by Mike F@Dec 19 2004, 04:49 PM
I believe that horse is dead, Jim.

Damn it Jim i'm a doctor not a lawyer!!






As for another one of these topics:

[Sammie]

What I find amusing is that a small group of gays are insisting on having the right to take part in an institute where they will be asked to surrender all their rights in order to make that institute work.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie@Dec 20 2004, 12:04 AM
What I find amusing is that a small group of gays are insisting on having the right to take part in an institute where they will be asked to surrender all their rights in order to make that institute work.

You mean just like straight people have to give up their rights to make it work?

I'm not sure I follow.

[Superfraggle]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Dec 20 2004, 01:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Dec 20 2004, 01:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Sammie@Dec 20 2004, 12:04 AM
What I find amusing is that a small group of gays are insisting on having the right to take part in an institute where they will be asked to surrender all their rights in order to make that institute work.

You mean just like straight people have to give up their rights to make it work?

I'm not sure I follow. [/b][/quote]
I'll second that. Je ne comprends pas. a.k.a huh?!!!

[Sammie]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Dec 20 2004, 01:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Dec 20 2004, 01:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Sammie@Dec 20 2004, 12:04 AM
What I find amusing is that a small group of gays are insisting on having the right to take part in an institute where they will be asked to surrender all their rights in order to make that institute work.

You mean just like straight people have to give up their rights to make it work?

I'm not sure I follow.[/b][/quote]
I really don't think there's anything to explain. Both the husband and wife have to sacrifice everything to make their marriage work when the two of them become one. They have to become even more selfless when children arrive in the home. There's a great responsibility to being a family unit where its members often give everything they have and get far less in return.

Marriages fail when people aren't prepared to submit to each other selflessly. The reason why so many marriages fail today is because people are far more selfish and for more concerned about insisting on demanding their rights than they were thirty years ago, before our glorious charter of rights.

[Superfraggle]

Originally posted by Sammie+Dec 20 2004, 01:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Dec 20 2004, 01:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

You mean just like straight people have to give up their rights to make it work?

I'm not sure I follow.

I really don't think there's anything to explain. Both the husband and wife have to sacrifice everything to make their marriage work when the two of them become one. They have to become even more selfless when children arrive in the home. There's a great responsibility to being a family unit where its members often give everything they have and get far less in return.

Marriages fail when people aren't prepared to submit to each other selflessly. The reason why so many marriages fail today is because people are far more selfish and for more concerned about insisting on demanding their rights than they were thirty years ago, before our glorious charter of rights. [/b][/quote]
Wow...that's quite a cynical view of marriage you have going on there. Sure, sacrifices have to be made, but not EVERYTHING. If you're in a relationship where you'll have to sacrifice everything just to be with them the rest of your lives (in theory), I don't think that's a very good person to be marrying, personally. There IS sacrificing and great responsibility that comes with marriage, yes. That has to be balanced with the benefits you're getting, however, to make it worth doing, IMO. By your views, shouldn't gays be better suited for marriage, since they are less likely to have children (yes adoption is an option, but I'm assuming it'll be less common for gays to adopt than for straights to make their own and/or adopt) and they will, by your reasoning, not have to give up as much?

[HOZ]

Originally posted by Superfraggle+Dec 20 2004, 07:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Superfraggle @ Dec 20 2004, 07:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I really don't think there's anything to explain. Both the husband and wife have to sacrifice everything to make their marriage work when the two of them become one. They have to become even more selfless when children arrive in the home. There's a great responsibility to being a family unit where its members often give everything they have and get far less in return.

Marriages fail when people aren't prepared to submit to each other selflessly. The reason why so many marriages fail today is because people are far more selfish and for more concerned about insisting on demanding their rights than they were thirty years ago, before our glorious charter of rights.

Wow...that's quite a cynical view of marriage you have going on there. Sure, sacrifices have to be made, but not EVERYTHING. If you're in a relationship where you'll have to sacrifice everything just to be with them the rest of your lives (in theory), I don't think that's a very good person to be marrying, personally. There IS sacrificing and great responsibility that comes with marriage, yes. That has to be balanced with the benefits you're getting, however, to make it worth doing, IMO. By your views, shouldn't gays be better suited for marriage, since they are less likely to have children (yes adoption is an option, but I'm assuming it'll be less common for gays to adopt than for straights to make their own and/or adopt) and they will, by your reasoning, not have to give up as much? [/b][/quote]
Actually...sacrifice is a very good word for marriage. If you are in a marriage for "what you can get out of it" ie...benefits then it will be a short one. IMO..of course.

Respect (love) and sacrifice = marriage

oops thread creep. :darnkids:

[Sammie]

Originally posted by Superfraggle+Dec 20 2004, 01:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Superfraggle @ Dec 20 2004, 01:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I really don't think there's anything to explain. Both the husband and wife have to sacrifice everything to make their marriage work when the two of them become one. They have to become even more selfless when children arrive in the home. There's a great responsibility to being a family unit where its members often give everything they have and get far less in return.

Marriages fail when people aren't prepared to submit to each other selflessly. The reason why so many marriages fail today is because people are far more selfish and for more concerned about insisting on demanding their rights than they were thirty years ago, before our glorious charter of rights.

Wow...that's quite a cynical view of marriage you have going on there. Sure, sacrifices have to be made, but not EVERYTHING. If you're in a relationship where you'll have to sacrifice everything just to be with them the rest of your lives (in theory), I don't think that's a very good person to be marrying, personally. There IS sacrificing and great responsibility that comes with marriage, yes. That has to be balanced with the benefits you're getting, however, to make it worth doing, IMO. By your views, shouldn't gays be better suited for marriage, since they are less likely to have children (yes adoption is an option, but I'm assuming it'll be less common for gays to adopt than for straights to make their own and/or adopt) and they will, by your reasoning, not have to give up as much?[/b][/quote]
Cynical view of marriage? I would prefer to think I'm being realistic. Ask yourself this question, "How far am I prepared to go to make this relationship work?" Certainly there are benefits to being married or it wouldn't be worth making a commitment in the first place. The whole point of getting married is to make a commitment to forming a family unit for the protection of the children that may arrive. If you don't want children, why bother getting married?

[Superfraggle]

Originally posted by Sammie@Dec 20 2004, 02:10 AM

Cynical view of marriage? I would prefer to think I'm being realistic. Ask yourself this question, "How far am I prepared to go to make this relationship work?" Certainly there are benefits to being married or it would be worth making a commitment in the first place. The whole point of getting married is to make a commitment to forming a family unit for the protection of the children that may arrive. If you don't want children, why bother getting married?

Well I've not yet met the lucky lady for whom I'm prepared to marry, but I'm young yet. . While I certainly believe that they are out there, I am even more sure that there is no woman for which I would ever be prepared to give up EVERYTHING. I see the purpose marriage as more a commitment to be with this one person for the rest of your life than preparation for the raising of a child. If you don't want children why bother being married? Because you love the person you are with and never want to leave them. Marriage is a means of expressing this. The benefits you get from the government don't hurt either. :P .

You can call me selfish if you want, but all that I am is expressed in the things that I do and if I have to sacrifice that for a marriage, I would no longer be able to be me. In the Christian/Catholic religions, one of the most sacred rights we have, by my understanding of things anyways, is the right to free will. I don't see how what is supposed to be one of the most sacred of acts (marriage) could be meant to take that away.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

The law should not discriminate against two people who wish to commit in the legal sense to the institution of marriage. If a particular church or clergy doesn't want to perform same sex marriages in their institution, fine, but those who wish to wed do so in a clergy that would accept their union. Lots of denominations do.

I don't know specifically but if my Buddhist wife and agnostic me wanted to marry many, many years ago, we wouldn't be able to. Not recognizing concentual unions is discrimination, and no amount of theological prophesizing will change that.

[Red]

Originally posted by Superfraggle+Dec 20 2004, 01:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Superfraggle @ Dec 20 2004, 01:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Sammie@Dec 20 2004, 02:10 AM

Cynical view of marriage? I would prefer to think I'm being realistic. Ask yourself this question, "How far am I prepared to go to make this relationship work?" Certainly there are benefits to being married or it would be worth making a commitment in the first place. The whole point of getting married is to make a commitment to forming a family unit for the protection of the children that may arrive. If you don't want children, why bother getting married?

Well I've not yet met the lucky lady for whom I'm prepared to marry, but I'm young yet. . While I certainly believe that they are out there, I am even more sure that there is no woman for which I would ever be prepared to give up EVERYTHING. I see the purpose marriage as more a commitment to be with this one person for the rest of your life than preparation for the raising of a child. If you don't want children why bother being married? Because you love the person you are with and never want to leave them. Marriage is a means of expressing this. The benefits you get from the government don't hurt either. :P .

You can call me selfish if you want, but all that I am is expressed in the things that I do and if I have to sacrifice that for a marriage, I would no longer be able to be me. In the Christian/Catholic religions, one of the most sacred rights we have, by my understanding of things anyways, is the right to free will. I don't see how what is supposed to be one of the most sacred of acts (marriage) could be meant to take that away. [/b][/quote]
And this is the problem. You haven't found that special someone so YOU THINK that you wouldn't do this or do that.......

It's like most of us say that if they won 5 mil jackpot they would invest it and live of the interest accumulated instead of spending a big chunk of it first. Problem is, untill you do win orfind that special someone you have no clue what that's gonna do to you. Money and love have strange ways of changing people, that's a fact.
________
UGGS

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie@Dec 20 2004, 12:36 AM
I really don't think there's anything to explain. Both the husband and wife have to sacrifice everything to make their marriage work when the two of them become one. They have to become even more selfless when children arrive in the home. There's a great responsibility to being a family unit where its members often give everything they have and get far less in return.

Marriages fail when people aren't prepared to submit to each other selflessly. The reason why so many marriages fail today is because people are far more selfish and for more concerned about insisting on demanding their rights than they were thirty years ago, before our glorious charter of rights.

Now you are getting even more confusing and there is plenty to explain.

First of all, who has to surrender all their rights? Which rights?. Specifics please, none of this "all of them" business. For example, do you have to give up the right to earn a living or own property or vote when you get married?

What exactly has to be sacrificed? Be specific. I'm sure there are some sacrifices but I'm not married so I don't know.

What does this have to do with same-sex marriage? Are you trying to say it's ironic that people that are fighting for the right to get married so they can give up all their rights?

[Superfraggle]

Originally posted by Red@Dec 20 2004, 09:13 AM

And this is the problem. You haven't found that special someone so YOU THINK that you wouldn't do this or do that.......

It's like most of us say that if they won 5 mil jackpot they would invest it and live of the interest accumulated instead of spending a big chunk of it first. Problem is, untill you do win orfind that special someone you have no clue what that's gonna do to you. Money and love have strange ways of changing people, that's a fact.

Oh I freely admit that I don't know exactly what it will do to me and that love CAN change people. But I remain firmly opposed to the idea that getting married will force me to sacrifice EVERYTHING or that it will change who I am more than fractionally. I would also say that money and love are very very different in my world and, though you won't believe me and will say that it's just because I haven't experienced great wealth, I also firmly believe that money would not change WHO I AM...merely the opportunities I have

[Cube Inmate]

I don't believe in legislating gay marriage, but these Christians are stupid...

Originally posted by The Stupid Article+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (The Stupid Article)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
There are two key reasons why the legal rights, benefits, and responsibilities of civil marriage should not be extended to same-sex couples.

The first is that homosexual relationships are not marriage. That is, they simply do not fit the minimum necessary condition for a marriage to exist--namely, the union of a man and a woman.

The second is that homosexual relationships are harmful. Not only do they not provide the same benefits to society as heterosexual marriages, but their consequences are far more negative than positive.

Either argument, standing alone, is sufficient to reject the claim that same-sex unions should be granted the legal status of marriage.[/b]

Okay...their argument (reason 1) is "we shouldn't argue over this because we're right, and that's a fact! Their second argument is just prejudiced BS. So they're lousy at formulating an argument, but there were a couple of interesting points that I've tried to get across before:

Originally posted by The Stupid Article@
Marriage is not a creation of the law. Marriage is a fundamental human institution that predates the law and the Constitution. At its heart, it is an anthropological and sociological reality, not a legal one. Laws relating to marriage merely recognize and regulate an institution that already exists.

Agreed...the "definition" of marriage is based on a lot of history, most of it non-Christian.

<!--QuoteBegin-The Stupid Article
The fundamental "right to marry" is a right that rests with individuals, not with couples. Homosexual individuals already have exactly the same "right" to marry as anyone else. Marriage license applications do not inquire as to a person's "sexual orientation.[/quote]

Also agreed...and the Supreme Court implicity agreed by refusing to rule the existing definition of marriage unconstitutional.

Ah well...that's my hit-and-run for the night. Back in another month to make some more stupid comments.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally posted by Superfraggle+Dec 19 2004, 11:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Superfraggle @ Dec 19 2004, 11:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

What a great reason not to legislate someting, incovenience. What do you care are you a lawmaker?

To be fair, he just said he was looking forward to seeing it, not that it would be a reason not to do it. As far as I'm concerned, there's no good reason in my mind that gays should be denied the right to marry. If Christians don't want them to do it in a Christian church and don't want to recognize it as a CHRISTIAN marriage, that's up to them, but as far as the government's concerned marriage licenses are just a legal agreement between two parties and I don't see why they can't both be the same sex.

As for the argument that it shouldn't be allowed because it won't produce a child, the world has too many people as it is. Why not restrict marriage to the strongest, smartest and best looking, then?

Just a thought that occured to me...think there'll be a lot of cases like in Drew Carey when Mr. Wick pretends to be Drew's lover in order to get citizenship? I don't think that should stop them from legalizing gay marriage, but it's something to think about [/b][/quote]
I don't see why that would be the case. Why wouldn't a guy just find a woman to help him get his citizenship?

Gay guys might try it, but if I was trying to dupe the government into giving me citizenship, I wouldn't do it by marrying a dude, I'd at least try to get a chick to fake marry me first.

[arsenal]

All this would do is make it a longer wait to get a fiance visa. People already have to wait 6 - 24 months before they are cleared. This is just for straight couples. And the majority of those are fraudulent applications.

It the whole idea of people getting married for a green card or whatever is not a new problem, it has been around for a very long time.

Weither the person is gay or not isn't really an issue.

[Flames89]

Oh hockey, please come back ...