9/11 Panel Suspected Deception by Pentagon

[White Doors]

Jeezus Murphy already...

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

You're a trader, so you know the difference between a trade and a put option. The trading was limited to two specific airlines and the put options were 60-90 times higher (6000 to 9000% increase) than has ever been recorded for either airline. That in itself is extremely coincidental, but I guess it is possible that someone may have just wanted to gamble that just those two particular airlines would see their stocks tumble in the next few days. It is possible. But what happens when you add in the same level of put options placed on Morgan Stanley Dean Witter and Merrill Lynch, who were hit hard by the WTC collapse, you add a second coincidence that just doesn't add up. Finally, the body that would have been able to track and prosecute potenital fraud like this was housed WTC7 and saw all of their filings and computer systems destroyed. And as luck would have it, they did not have backups of any of the data stored off site. Coincidence number three. Does that add up?

I track shorts and longs all the time on energy commodities ... we can see records to both extremes from time to time with no opec impacting world event happening the next day. Were they all conspiracies that didn't have the other foot drop to complete the cycle?

People step out on equities and commodities all the time. Often when one moves people think there's something they are missing and other traders follow suite creating a stampede of non fundamentally supported action in a certain area that doesn't make much sense.

Traders have become over night geniuses and out of work for getting long on a commodity and then waking up the next morning (having not slept for fear of their position) only to find out a Hurricane was in the works and the markets are up and they're rich.

It happens.

But so I'm clear ... you're suggesting people took runs at two airlines and two financial insitutions with the knowledge that ...

1. There would be planes hitting the head quarters of financial institutions in NY
2. Said attack was guaranteed to knock down both towers destroying WTC7 and any chance of an investigation?

That's a pretty well executed plan. Wow

[FurnaceFace]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

You're a trader, so you know the difference between a trade and a put option. The trading was limited to two specific airlines and the put options were 60-90 times higher (6000 to 9000% increase) than has ever been recorded for either airline. That in itself is extremely coincidental, but I guess it is possible that someone may have just wanted to gamble that just those two particular airlines would see their stocks tumble in the next few days. It is possible. But what happens when you add in the same level of put options placed on Morgan Stanley Dean Witter and Merrill Lynch, who were hit hard by the WTC collapse, you add a second coincidence that just doesn't add up. Finally, the body that would have been able to track and prosecute potenital fraud like this was housed WTC7 and saw all of their filings and computer systems destroyed. And as luck would have it, they did not have backups of any of the data stored off site. Coincidence number three. Does that add up?

Sure, I can say the terrorists put the options in can't I?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

Sure, I can say the terrorists put the options in can't I?

If they were smart, which they obviously were, they would have. Terorrist activity isnt cheap, and hey, why not go for the double play?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But so I'm clear ... you're suggesting people took runs at two airlines and two financial insitutions with the knowledge that ...

1. There would be planes hitting the head quarters of financial institutions in NY
2. Said attack was guaranteed to knock down both towers destroying WTC7 and any chance of an investigation?

That's a pretty well executed plan. Wow

What is so hard to believe about this? This shouldn't be hard stuff to comprehend. They've done stuff almost as bad since taking over. From the illegal incarceration of people, to the domestic spying program, to the endless flood of bogus "terror alerts", to the outing of a CIA operative, to the manufature of evidence to start a war, its an endless stream of activities that cost people their lives or livelihoods. They've contributed to 50,000 deaths, including ~4,000 Americans, so why would another few thousand matter? Fear is being used to control us, and all of it created at home by our own governments.

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

Sure, I can say the terrorists put the options in can't I?

Sure, you can say that, but it would be incorrect. A large chunk of the puts were traced back to CIA front companies. Follow the money. Who profitted from the events that transpired that day? It's all about power and money. Why are people so surprised by this? Does no one remember the Iran Contra scandal? Who was responsible for that mess? The same people knocking around the Bush Administration right now.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Table 5

If they were smart, which they obviously were, they would have. Terorrist activity isnt cheap, and hey, why not go for the double play?

You are aware bin Laden and al Qaeda never took credit for the attack? He praised the attacks and cheered the attacks, but he never made claims that it was anyone affiliated with al Qaeda. You are also aware that the FBI has never been able to find any evidence to link al Qaeda or bin Laden to 9/11 either. Just an interesting factoid I thought you should probably be aware of.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

(oh sorry, I forgot we aren't supposed to post links to support our claims)

[FanIn80]

All of this stems from having a President that is untrustworthy by nature.

If they had a JFK type or someone a little more "leaderesque," half of these stories would never see the light of day. Mind you, there probably wouldn't have been a 9/11 in the first place, then...

It's just like the OJ thing. It doesn't matter if the court found him innocent - the fact that he acted like a cheat and a liar just tells people that he's guilty and had it covered up. Same thing with Bush.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

What is so hard to believe about this? This shouldn't be hard stuff to comprehend. They've done stuff almost as bad since taking over. From the illegal incarceration of people, to the domestic spying program, to the endless flood of bogus "terror alerts", to the outing of a CIA operative, to the manufature of evidence to start a war, its an endless stream of activities that cost people their lives or livelihoods. They've contributed to 50,000 deaths, including ~4,000 Americans, so why would another few thousand matter? Fear is being used to control us, and all of it created at home by our own governments.

See that's just the thing.

We don't even agree on what you call facts so we really have no where to go. You have a populace based argument on many of them, so I'm not calling you a wingnut, but almost all of that has another angle to it that is at least if not more believable from my standpoint (which I'm not calling any more correct than yours) and neither side can just claim fact.

illegal incarcaration ... they're terrorists which falls out of geneva, not enlisted soldiers. You won't agree with that, but it's a pretty strong argument the other way.

wire tapping ... I would imagine if you boil down who has actually been spied on you'd find some pretty suspicious people, or people with some pretty suspicious friends. If I talk daily to a terrorist in Afghanistan I would hope someone was paying attention to me. 99% of the US has no contact with these people and therefore has nothing to hide and won't be listened in on. Way overblown in my mind, but then I care more about my family not blowing up in a shopping mall than someone listening to my dad and I talking about a Lexus he might buy.

terror alerts ... the US was crying out for why there wasn't a warning for 911. They had to respond to this. Catch 22 for any government between warning the people and creating a panic and leaving them in the dark and catching hell if it does hit the fan. No way to win.

but back to your conspiracy ... The buildings coming down was a surprise to almost everyone, so you wouldn't factor in the destruction of WTC7 as part of a master plan. No way

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

but back to your conspiracy ... The buildings coming down was a surprise to almost everyone, so you wouldn't factor in the destruction of WTC7 as part of a master plan. No way

A surprise to everyone? An understatement. WTC7 coming down, the biggest surprise. But if you are going to perpetrate this event, and want to cover your tracks, you want to make sure that WTC7 comes down as well. WTC housed offices for the FBI, CIA, NSA and SEC. If you want to make sure key evidence is missing after the fact, you take down WTC7. And what happened? A building with minimal damage and limited fires came down in a nice clean little pile of rubble, destroying all potential evidence in the building. And who told the fire department to pull out because the building was going to collapse? Larry Silverstein, the guy who made BILLIONS off of an insurance waiver he added to the WTC complex a month earlier that would pay out ghastly amounts of money if a terrorist event took place. Let me guess, more coincidences?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

A surprise to everyone? An understatement. WTC7 coming down, the biggest surprise. But if you are going to perpetrate this event, and want to cover your tracks, you want to make sure that WTC7 comes down as well. WTC housed offices for the FBI, CIA, NSA and SEC. If you want to make sure key evidence is missing after the fact, you take down WTC7. And what happened? A building with minimal damage and limited fires came down in a nice clean little pile of rubble, destroying all potential evidence in the building. And who told the fire department to pull out because the building was going to collapse? Larry Silverstein, the guy who made BILLIONS off of an insurance waiver he added to the WTC complex a month earlier that would pay out ghastly amounts of money if a terrorist event took place. Let me guess, more coincidences?

in my mind yeah ...

how many events, decisions, quotes, and effects can be attritubed to 911 that were happening anyway or because of the main event itself.

in the aftermath, and especially in the US, where a conspiracy theory is attached to almost every single US historical foot note, you have 10,000 factoids that anyone can clump together and call them joined.

Are they? may be, mabye not.

I tend to believe this stuff to be bunk, but like I said earlier ... you're tossing it my way to disprove it when no one has done a thing to prove any links whatsoever.

like the missile hitting the pentagon ... big issue on this site until new video shows the plane and now it's gone as a topic

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

You are aware bin Laden and al Qaeda never took credit for the attack? He praised the attacks and cheered the attacks, but he never made claims that it was anyone affiliated with al Qaeda. You are also aware that the FBI has never been able to find any evidence to link al Qaeda or bin Laden to 9/11 either. Just an interesting factoid I thought you should probably be aware of.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

(oh sorry, I forgot we aren't supposed to post links to support our claims)

Please tell me you're not going to take a terrorists word for truth...

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

like the missile hitting the pentagon ... big issue on this site until new video shows the plane and now it's gone as a topic

You saw a plane on that video? Are you kidding me??? The grainy, low resolution blobs that were hidden from view by a security gate swipe pad were a plane in your mind? As you said earlier, WOW!!! That video proved nothing except that the government is indeed hiding something.

That video was NOT from any federal/state building surveillance system in the United States. The resolution didn't meet standards, the frame rate didn't meet standards, and the positioning of the camera did not meet standards. I have no idea where that footage came from, but it was not from any system in use by a government building and definitely not a high security site like the Pentagon. As well, there would be at least another dozen cameras on that side of the building alone that should have caught the event. Where's the footage from those cameras?

I am honestly not trying to insult you when I say this but, the fact that you suggest that this "footage" is proof of anything speaks volumes. It tells me you are grossly uninformed on the events and haven't even scratched the surface on any of the questions surrounding what transpired. Good lord, if you're going to call someone a fool for what they believe you should at least have a basic understanding of wtf you're talking about. Jesus Bingo, that's weak. I expect more from an itelligent fellow like yourself. Man, the next thing I'm expecting if for you to defend "intelligent design".

I would say the reason this subject doesn't get discussed is because of the abuse people get when they try to discuss these issues. I don't care if you call me an idiot as long as you bring something along with you to argue. But the dogpile by the uninformed nitwits who know nothing of the matters they are chiming in on is what makes people get mad and leave. Poor Looger got steamrolled by a bunch of people that knew nothing of the things he was talking about. They just repeated all the same bull**** that is considered "fact" in zeitgeist (ironically, it was the 9/11 Commission report that fabricated much of what is considered fact, and here are the members of that commission now admitting they felt like they were lied to by the Pentagon and NORAD). I hope they also take a good hard look in the mirror of all the testimony of witnesses who were in the WTC (510 firefighters and EMS staff as well as hundreds of civilians) that they ignored. So feel free to call me a fool if you like, but you better bring more than the weak assed garbage that has been circulated as fact. Christ, according to the popular myth 19 arabs committed the attacks. Ironic that half of them are still alive and well, living their lives back in their home countries, according to BBC. How is this at all possible if they died in the attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon? Or is this just another coincidence.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

Please tell me you're not going to take a terrorists word for truth...

No, but I am going to need some proof. It goes completely against bin Laden and al Qaedas M.O. to NOT claim responsibility for the actions they undertake. bin Laden has always been right up front laying claim to the things he has done. There has also been evidence to support his involvement. But the fact of the matter is that there is no evidence that bin Laden nor al Qaeda played any part in 9/11. NONE. If there was a shred of evident the FBI would happily add it to the list of crimes they have pinned on bin Laden. You can say what you like about bin Laden, but he has proven to be honest. Yes, he's a murdering *******, but he's honest about what he does and his motivations (it's part of his profile).

Oh, and let me spin that question around on you. Please tell me you're not going to take Bush's word for truth...

Please don't forget to digest all of those blatant lies, propaganda and disinformation campaigns he's run since 9/11 before you answer (I think being a habitual liar is part of Bush's profile).

[Azure]

I actually trust Bush a bit more then Bin Laden, but no, I won't take either at their word.

Bin Laden could have been throwing us a curveball regarding 9/11. Sadly, I say "could."

[FurnaceFace]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Sure, you can say that, but it would be incorrect. A large chunk of the puts were traced back to CIA front companies. Follow the money. Who profitted from the events that transpired that day? It's all about power and money. Why are people so surprised by this? Does no one remember the Iran Contra scandal? Who was responsible for that mess? The same people knocking around the Bush Administration right now.

But...I'm really confused then..you told me earlier:

Finally, the body that would have been able to track and prosecute potenital fraud like this was housed WTC7 and saw all of their filings and computer systems destroyed. And as luck would have it, they did not have backups of any of the data stored off site. Coincidence number three. Does that add up?

So, you tell me first tracking the fraud went up when the building was flattened, but now you're telling me is was traced to CIA companies. I don't know how you can have it both ways... that doesn't add up to me.

[Bingo]

^first off ... who pray tell did I call a fool?

Look back I went out of my way to say the opposite. That I could be wrong, that there were many that think the same way as you, and that thinking so on "some" of these issues doesn't make you a wing nut.

yet twice above you suggest I called you a fool. I'm sure you and I can escalate an argument just fine without making up insults that never happened.

It was a plane.

If you don't buy that video I don't care ... I guess if you think it's a plane it's easier to see it as a plane. If you think it's a missile you look for why it isn't proof.

But don't accuse me of just scratching the surface. I don't buy that. I lean right on foreign policy measures, but I'm pretty liberal on social issues ... that's my bent and I'll admit it. I read things day in and day out that seem to be absolute proof of things like ...

WMD were move to Syria
and that there is a direct link of Al Quaeda and Iraq

... but I don't buy them either. If those two were proven they'd hit the main line media and not be fringe reports that look official but are far from it. Similarly ... some of the conspiracy theory stuff looks to be well proven, but it's just not. You can read a grouping of things called fact that come from a source that hs no proof that they are in fact facts.

it goes on and on in cyberspace this issue and frankly it makes me dizzy.

you can believe what ever you want, that's your call. But don't question my intelligence because I dismiss all this stuff as nonsense as you know we could both list links all day proving things both ways. It's sad ... but the internet and to a lesser extent mainstream media is getting more and more devoid of actual fact every day.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's sad ... but the internet and to a lesser extent mainstream media is getting more and more devoid of actual fact every day.

Well, we agree on that.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

But...I'm really confused then..you told me earlier:

So, you tell me first tracking the fraud went up when the building was flattened, but now you're telling me is was traced to CIA companies. I don't know how you can have it both ways... that doesn't add up to me.

Don't be confused. The linkage was discovered when huge amounts of money were not claimed in sevarl accounts and certain discrepancies were investigated. The one end of the transaction provided some details, seeing who placed the orders. The files that prove the execution of the orders were destroyed. The only way those orders can be verified is if someone goes through the brokerage to claim their earnings. Those earnings (hundreds of millions of dollars) are still unclaimed. That's how the transactions were discovered in the first place. Its kind of like when some stolen property is discovered in a locker and the police have an idea who stole the goods. There is no physical evidence to link the two, so the only way to make it stick is to catch the perpetrator claiming the goods. There is circumstantial evidence to suggest who placed the put options, but until that connection is proven they cannot close the book on it. I hope that clears that issue up for you. I had to have a broker explain the whole thing to me, so if its a little fuzzy, excuse me, I'm no stock market whiz.

[icarus]

Regarding the 911 major motion pictures, on the day of the attacks I'm sure I wasn't alone when I cynically wondered "how long before Hollywood starts making movies about these events?" My prediction, about five or six years, turns out to have been right on the money.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Don't be confused. The linkage was discovered when huge amounts of money were not claimed in sevarl accounts and certain discrepancies were investigated. The one end of the transaction provided some details, seeing who placed the orders. The files that prove the execution of the orders were destroyed. The only way those orders can be verified is if someone goes through the brokerage to claim their earnings. Those earnings (hundreds of millions of dollars) are still unclaimed. That's how the transactions were discovered in the first place. Its kind of like when some stolen property is discovered in a locker and the police have an idea who stole the goods. There is no physical evidence to link the two, so the only way to make it stick is to catch the perpetrator claiming the goods. There is circumstantial evidence to suggest who placed the put options, but until that connection is proven they cannot close the book on it. I hope that clears that issue up for you. I had to have a broker explain the whole thing to me, so if its a little fuzzy, excuse me, I'm no stock market whiz.

During times when the patient is acting upon his paranoid beliefs, the therapist's loyalties and trust may be called into question. Care must be used not to challenge the client too firmly or risk the individual leaving therapy permanently. Control issues should be dealt with in much a similar manner, with great care. Since the paranoid beliefs are delusional and not based in reality, arguing them from a rational point of view is useless. Challenging the beliefs is also likely to result in more frustration on both the part of the therapist and client, too

Link:

http://mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.p...oc&id=481&cn=8