Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Slava]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I think that a little secrecy is prudent. China doesn't need to know what worked and or didn't work.

Fair enough, but when you have the sitting government who was positively influenced by a foreign country someone independent has to examine this. It's not good enough for that same government to say "it was fine".

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Slava

Fair enough, but when you have the sitting government who was positively influenced by a foreign country someone independent has to examine this. It's not good enough for that same government to say "it was fine".

It really is a damned if you do damned if you don't situation, there is no saying that any independent or private interest group has not also been levied by foreign influence. Economic powers trying to control geo politics is as old as time unfortunately.

[Slava]

Sure, but when your National intelligence agency says there was a problem, you can't just throw your hands up say there's nothing we can do.

[TheIronMaiden]

I don't get the sense that is what the government is doing. Anything more drastic will have people up in arms. Like open-door said, clamping down on social media content is already a non starter for most Canadians.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I think that a little secrecy is prudent. China doesn't need to know what worked and or didn't work.

"Hey Mr. Trudeau, why is there a giant balloon loitering around outside your office window? I know it says 'Happy Birthday Justin' on it but for some reason I dont trust it...is it even your birthday?"

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Slava

Thanks for your valuable addition to the discussion though.

Seems about as valuable as your “omg! nobody is covering this! guess that’s fine for Liberal lovers!”

You came in adding nothing of value and immediately resorted to accusing people of being partisan. Sometimes in an effort to make it clear you’re “like, sooo centrist! everybody disagrees with me!” you come off looking a bit stupid when you struggle to actually discuss the things you whine about other people not discussing.

Just try skipping the whining and get to the point.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Seems about as valuable as your “omg! nobody is covering this! guess that’s fine for Liberal lovers!”

You came in adding nothing of value and immediately resorted to accusing people of being partisan. Sometimes in an effort to make it clear you’re “like, sooo centrist! everybody disagrees with me!” you come off looking a bit stupid when you struggle to actually discuss the things you whine about other people not discussing.

Just try skipping the whining and get to the point.

Lol, coming from you this is incredibly amusing.

[Wormius]

Have you guys considered looking past whatever seems so triggering in each others’ posts?

Here’s something to try, when you go to reply, delete all of quoted stuff that is irrelevant to the topic. Win-win.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Slava

Lol, coming from you this is incredibly amusing.

I assume being easily amused goes hand in hand with having ideas that everyone from every political stripe thinks are bad or poorly thought out and pretending it’s because they’re “centrist,” and not… you know…

But no, you’re right man, it’s everyone else.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I assume being easily amused goes hand in hand with having ideas that everyone from every political stripe thinks are bad or poorly thought out and pretending it’s because they’re “centrist,” and not… you know…

But no, you’re right man, it’s everyone else.

So apologies if I've missed this, but have you got any comments on the topic at hand?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Slava

So apologies if I've missed this, but have you got any comments on the topic at hand?

Sure, I think it’s concerning because China clearly has a vested interest in a weaker Canada, but I don’t think there is an issue with coverage or government transparency over it. I also think it’s exceptionally ignorant to say “I guess it’s fine if it’s for the party you support” considering the article makes specific mention of China’s intent to ensure a minority government, preferring parties that are constantly fighting and ensuring no party has enough power to implement any policies that might be threatening to China.

I also think criticizing a view that differs from what you believe on the basis of the person supporting another party (or dismissing their views by saying they must be because they support another party) plays exactly into the type of interference and influence China is attempting, and I find it hard to believe someone would genuinely take issue with what China is doing while acting in the same way China is attempting to influence people to act.

What are your thoughts?

[Slava]

I think it's incredibly concerning that CSIS says there's been an issue and the ones in charge of this are the same people that China wanted to remain in power. I'm not convinced that the Liberals will be forthcoming with evidence or an investigation into this. In fact, they have a vested interest to do the opposite and let it slide away out of public view. That's problematic because it will only embloden groups who want to interfere.

The other portion that remains an issue is that there have been questions about this for months. To date, almost nothing seems to have happened.

[b1crunch]

Originally Posted by Slava

I think it's incredibly concerning that CSIS says there's been an issue and the ones in charge of this are the same people that China wanted to remain in power. I'm not convinced that the Liberals will be forthcoming with evidence or an investigation into this. In fact, they have a vested interest to do the opposite and let it slide away out of public view. That's problematic because it will only embloden groups who want to interfere.

The other portion that remains an issue is that there have been questions about this for months. To date, almost nothing seems to have happened.

The issue of foreign influence in Canada's electoral and political processes is an important issue but it is hardly new.

Here is a story from 2011 about effectively the same thing.

Foreign countries infiltrating Canada, spy chief warns
https://www.ctvnews.ca/foreign-count...warns-1.593597

"...the targets of foreign interference can include elected representatives, candidates for public office, and public servants at the municipal, provincial and federal levels -- as well as diaspora or ethnic communities."

"It is the latest, and perhaps most detailed, articulation of the spy service's concerns about stealthy overtures from foreign agents, including two suspected cases involving provincial cabinet ministers."

Nothing (politically) seems to have come from this 2011 CSIS warning either, and this is when Stephen Harper and the conservatives were in power. We don't know who China was influencing then, but it very well could have been conservatives, because we just don't know. The government, led by Harper, never told us. Did Harper keep it quiet because it would hurt his party? You'd think that if the influence was on the opposition he'd be all over releasing the details. I tend to not think this. Rather, I think it's likely not in the best intertest of Canada to discuss any of these issues with the general public, hence the silence then and now.

While I think Trudeau is generally an idiot, it likely more plausible that the government stays quit on this issue due to the nature of national security and less so that it's embarrassing or an ethics issue.

No government (regardless of the party in charge) will want to talk about this issue because there are a lot of moving parts at play in how we handle issues of national security.

Just my take.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Slava

I think it's incredibly concerning that CSIS says there's been an issue and the ones in charge of this are the same people that China wanted to remain in power. I'm not convinced that the Liberals will be forthcoming with evidence or an investigation into this. In fact, they have a vested interest to do the opposite and let it slide away out of public view. That's problematic because it will only embloden groups who want to interfere.

The other portion that remains an issue is that there have been questions about this for months. To date, almost nothing seems to have happened.

According to the report there were 9 Libs and 2 conservatives. If PP wanted to get a head up on this issue, he'd push for the release of the Conservative's names and push for expulsion, especially if we're talking about breaking campaign finance rules with under the table donations for example.

Its not unusual for some form of foreign interference. In 2015 it was Leadnow US pushing money to leadnow Canada to set up war rooms and run campaigns against Harper.

In 2011, there were hints of it.

What's disturbing with Trudeau is his reaction. He basically brushed it off with a "nah, Canadians decided the election, but we'll push to find out who leaked the report" Why not both? push for the investigation of these MP's and a coming clean on this and look for the CSIS leaks, unless our government can't chew gum and walk at the same time.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

According to the report there were 9 Libs and 2 conservatives. If PP wanted to get a head up on this issue, he'd push for the release of the Conservative's names and push for expulsion, especially if we're talking about breaking campaign finance rules with under the table donations for example.

Wait, expulsion? Is there any evidence, or even any indication, that those MPs were complicit or even knew what was happening?

He should definitely campaign on it though.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Wait, expulsion? Is there any evidence, or even any indication, that those MPs were complicit or even knew what was happening?

He should definitely campaign on it though.

Well if campaign finance rules were broken (and I don't know that they were), then expulsion for sure.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Wait, expulsion? Is there any evidence, or even any indication, that those MPs were complicit or even knew what was happening?

He should definitely campaign on it though.

Can't really see it pushing many votes. He should focus his campaign on affordability and policies that will help 'the little guy'. Inflation is coming down but people are going to be ticked off about it for a long while even if it gets back to normal.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well if campaign finance rules were broken (and I don't know that they were), then expulsion for sure.

As far as I know, there is no indication that the people involved knew the donations were coming from the Chinese government as their source was obscured.

Outside of using this as a campaign talking point, it’s tough to see how to fault individual MPs based on the information we know. China was doing everything from targeting business executives and academics to supplying political campaigns with university-aged volunteers. I wonder if that’s the reason CSIS hasn’t revealed the names of the individuals (as it would imply they were guilty of some wrongdoing instead of possibly victims/unknowing beneficiaries of it)

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by petemoss

can't really see it pushing many votes. He should focus his campaign on affordability and policies that will help 'the little guy'. inflation is coming down but people are going to be ticked off about it for a long while even if it gets back to normal.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1628073686921252864

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Can't really see it pushing many votes.

Don't know that I agree. First, it is a good "corruption" thing, in the sense that it aligns with the characterization of the LPC as shady and untrustworthy, which... they are. I mean, the idea that not only is China trying to get them elected, but that their response to that becoming public is focused on avoiding the leak of that type of information, is actually a pretty bad look for the average person. That whole sense of "these guys are dirty and only out for themselves" is what the CPC should really be pushing, given that you don't know if there will be an election for a while. If they want to set themselves up for success in a couple of years, should use the interim to create negative associations more generally rather than specific things that you might focus on during an election cycle, no?

He should focus his campaign on affordability and policies that will help 'the little guy'.

Yeah, that's part and parcel with the strategy, though - i.e., "that sleaze JT looks after his rich laurentian elite buddies and feeds them your tax dollars to secure his grip on power, while you and yours struggle to get by". It's all part of the same broad populist message, and that's what PP has been leaning into basically since the start. I just don't think he's in any way a credible source for that message.