Galloway wipes the floor with Sky News anchor

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Also, I wonder if Galloway considers those arrested trying to blow up British jetliners bound for the USA 'freedom fighter's? If not, why?

I would think he would not consider them freedom fighters.

Why? Well they obviously aren't defending their own territory, a right which is assured in the geneva convention. I don't see how you can attempt to parallel the situations.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I would think he would not consider them freedom fighters.

Why? Well they obviously aren't defending their own territory, a right which is assured in the geneva convention. I don't see how you can attempt to parallel the situations.

What territory is Hezbollah defending? How are they defending territory by lobbing missles at innocent civilians?

Why don't you see parallel's? Frankly, I can't see any difference whatsoever.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

The thing is Israel did leave Lebanon, so there was no reason for Hezbollah to stick around and build up a massive supply of arms. They got what they wanted in 1990. But we all know that Hezbollahs main goal is to rid the world of Israel. That doesn't sound like freedom fighters to me.

The UN, EU, Canada and the US all agreed that Israels withdrawl from Lebanon was complete in 2000, yes.

However, those powers all agree that the Shebaa Farms is Syrian territory.

hezbollah disagrees, believes that the Shebaa Farms is soverign Lebanese land and that Israel is still occupying it.

Yes, hezbollah's stated goal is the same as the other Middle East terrorist groups - millions of Jews treading water in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea. They will always find a pretext for launching missles into Israel, whether it is the Shebaa Farms, jailed criminals, support of other brother terrorist organizations. I am sure the list is endless.



Galloway though does see an end - when there is a Two state solution with an independant Palestinian State with east Jerusalem as the capitol and an exchange of "prisoners".

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Anyone who backs up a terrorist organization is non-credible.

Can you prove beyond the shadow of the doubt that Hizbollah is a terrorist organization? I believe you can if we agree on a definition of terrorism. The problem is that both Israel and the US would also fit the definition. Therefore by your definition anyone backing anybody in this conflict would be non-credible.

There have been kidnappings, assasinations, incursions, etc on both sides of these Israel conflicts. As Galloway says, the roots for this go back decades, don't try and spout out that there as an agreed peace and that Hizbollah and the Lebanese are the ones to blame for breaking it. That would be a distortion.

[Dogbert]

Once again, I'm alarmed at some of the sites that CPers visit.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I would think he would not consider them freedom fighters.

Why? Well they obviously aren't defending their own territory, a right which is assured in the geneva convention. I don't see how you can attempt to parallel the situations.

Also, Under the Geneve convention, Hezbollah os breaking all the rules in the book. They are illegal combatants even if the reason they started the war was legitimate, which it isn't.
Well about as legitimate as saying that Poland had it coming in 1939 when they refused to give away the Danzig corridor.

Perhaps you buy that as well?

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Can you prove beyond the shadow of the doubt that Hizbollah is a terrorist organization? I believe you can if we agree on a definition of terrorism. The problem is that both Israel and the US would also fit the definition. Therefore by your definition anyone backing anybody in this conflict would be non-credible.

There have been kidnappings, assasinations, incursions, etc on both sides of these Israel conflicts. As Galloway says, the roots for this go back decades, don't try and spout out that there as an agreed peace and that Hizbollah and the Lebanese are the ones to blame for breaking it. That would be a distortion.

The USA and Israel are terrorists eh?
wow. they target civilians in order to inflict terror eh?

you, my friend, are out to lunch. You are a ' useful idiot' as Stalin used to say.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by White Doors

What territory is Hezbollah defending?

What they see as their historical homeland I would assume.

Originally Posted by White Doors

How are they defending territory by lobbing missles at innocent civilians?

They aren't the only ones attacking civilians. I don't see the missiles as defense of their territory, I see it as retaliation for kidnappings and incursions that the Israeli's have been involved in.

Originally Posted by White Doors

Why don't you see parallel's? Frankly, I can't see any difference whatsoever.

You don't see the difference between people taking up arms in their homeland and trying to re-establish the borders as they believe them to be, retaliating for attacks on their homeland and kidnappings and assasinations of their leaders and a group of people in a foreign country preparing to take down some planes? Frankly if you can't see that difference then we don't have anything to talk about because I won't have any respect for your opinion.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Also, Under the Geneve convention, Hezbollah os breaking all the rules in the book. They are illegal combatants even if the reason they started the war was legitimate, which it isn't.
Well about as legitimate as saying that Poland had it coming in 1939 when they refused to give away the Danzig corridor.

Perhaps you buy that as well?

The US has also been found guilty of violating the Geneva Convention by the World Court/UN. Of course they can just veto those resolutions...

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by White Doors

What territory is Hezbollah defending?

They claim to be defending the Shebaa Farms and now the 30 km swath of land that Israel would like to see as a buffer zone against those missles.

How are they defending territory by lobbing missles at innocent civilians?

I think the missles show that hezbollah can hit Israeli cities wether there is a buffer zone or not so Israel creating one is useless.

the Shebaa Farms thing is a different egg entirely. If they are included in a ceasefire aggreement, what is to prevent another terrorist organization from disregarding any international agreement and starting a war just because they want a better settlement.

Why don't you see parallel's? Frankly, I can't see any difference whatsoever.

I think the only similarity is that they both, as terrorists, purposefully target civilians.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by White Doors

The USA and Israel are terrorists eh?
wow. they target civilians in order to inflict terror eh?

you, my friend, are out to lunch. You are a ' useful idiot' as Stalin used to say.

Go educate yourself my friend, you know not of what you speak. The US's history since WWII contains many an example of invading countries, setting up brutal regimes, funding terrorists, etc. It's all there for us to see, many documents have become de-classified since the freedom of information act and many people have spoken out about these kinds of operations. Israel's history of invasion (helped along by US support and weapons) is also similarly obvious if you'd take to the time to do some research.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

What they see as their historical homeland I would assume.

You assume too much. Hezbollah are NOT Palestinians. This shows your lack of research on this conflict.


They aren't the only ones attacking civilians. I don't see the missiles as defense of their territory, I see it as retaliation for kidnappings and incursions that the Israeli's have been involved in.

Hezbollah STARTED the whole mess by crossing into Israel territory and killing soldiers. And Hezbollah is NOT a country. Lebanon is.


You don't see the difference between people taking up arms in their homeland and trying to re-establish the borders as they believe them to be, retaliating for attacks on their homeland and kidnappings and assasinations of their leaders and a group of people in a foreign country preparing to take down some planes? Frankly if you can't see that difference then we don't have anything to talk about because I won't have any respect for your opinion.

The fact that you don;t respect my opinion makes me happy. You think Hezbollah is retaliating? THEY STARTED IT

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

What they see as their historical homeland I would assume.

Don't assume anything - you know the old saying.

The Shebaa Farms situation is quite cloudy. Only hezbollah sees it as a part of their land. Syria, the UN, and Israel see it differently. They, and Lebanon, see the "Blue Line" as the recognized boarder between Lebanon and Israel.

They aren't the only ones attacking civilians. I don't see the missiles as defense of their territory, I see it as retaliation for kidnappings and incursions that the Israeli's have been involved in.

And of course, Israel has been involved in it as retaliation for kidnappings and incursions that hezbollah have been involved in.

"attacking" is a loaded word. hezbollah TARGETS (as best they can) civilians. Israel tries it's best to not TARGET civilians.

You don't see the difference between people taking up arms in their homeland and trying to re-establish the borders as they believe them to be, retaliating for attacks on their homeland and kidnappings and assasinations of their leaders

Which is all Israel is trying to do, only they have better toys and were alright with where the boarder is.

(on a side note - I guess since the Natives in Caledonia want to re-establish the boarders as they see fit and want to retailiate for attacks on said homeland, that they are well within their rights to take up arms against the RCMP, OPP and local business owners?)

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by White Doors

The fact that you don;t respect my opinion makes me happy. You think Hezbollah is retaliating? THEY STARTED IT

Well we don't see eye to eye on that then. I think trying to say that one side in particular started the entire conflict is an extreme oversimplification.

You buy the line that you've been fed that they started it. I don't buy it. Unfortunately I don't have time right now to do some scholarly research on the subject. But others have and they would indicate the issue is neither as black and white nor as cut and dried as you would appear to make it.

I'm not as informed as I would like about the issue but clearly you aren't very well informed about Israel's history of aggression in the area.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Go educate yourself my friend, you know not of what you speak. The US's history since WWII contains many an example of invading countries, setting up brutal regimes, funding terrorists, etc. It's all there for us to see, many documents have become de-classified since the freedom of information act and many people have spoken out about these kinds of operations. Israel's history of invasion (helped along by US support and weapons) is also similarly obvious if you'd take to the time to do some research.

You do remember the cold war don't you? They were proxy wars to defend freedom from Communism. Were they perfect, of course not, but to now NOT see them in that context is to purposefully blind yourself to it. Pretext DOES count for something. It's in all the laws that we have.
Israel has never started a war in it's entire existence. You are the one who has to do some research my friend. Try taking a history course or two.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Go educate yourself my friend, you know not of what you speak. The US's history since WWII contains many an example of invading countries, setting up brutal regimes, funding terrorists, etc. It's all there for us to see, many documents have become de-classified since the freedom of information act and many people have spoken out about these kinds of operations. Israel's history of invasion (helped along by US support and weapons) is also similarly obvious if you'd take to the time to do some research.

FDW, save your key strokes. You're making way too much sense for White Doors to comprehend. Both sides are guilty of playing the one-up game for so long that its impossible to figure out who started what. The "he started it" argument is lame when you consider the historical bitterness felt on both sides.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by White Doors

You do remember the cold war don't you? They were proxy wars to defend freedom from Communism. Were they perfect, of course not, but to now NOT see them in that context is to purposefully blind yourself to it. Pretext DOES count for something. It's in all the laws that we have.
Israel has never started a war in it's entire existence. You are the one who has to do some research my friend. Try taking a history course or two.

hHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well we don't see eye to eye on that then. I think trying to say that one side in particular started the entire conflict is an extreme oversimplification.

You buy the line that you've been fed that they started it. I don't buy it. Unfortunately I don't have time right now to do some scholarly research on the subject. But others have and they would indicate the issue is neither as black and white nor as cut and dried as you would appear to make it.

I'm not as informed as I would like about the issue but clearly you aren't very well informed about Israel's history of aggression in the area.

You are the one showing your ignorance on the issue. I don't hear Israel calling for the extermination of all Arabs. I do hear the opposite from the Arabs themselves. I don;t see Israel starting wars with their neighbours, but they always finish them - thank goodness.

You are the one that is being spoon fed. You think that this is about disputed land. It is not. It is a hate-filled death cult that wants to finish Hitler's job.

Period.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

FDW, save your key strokes. You're making way too much sense for White Doors to comprehend. Both sides are guilty of playing the one-up game for so long that its impossible to figure out who started what. The "he started it" argument is lame when you consider the historical bitterness felt on both sides.

There would be no wars if they left Israel alone. Jordan and Egypt have and I don't see Israel attacking them at all, do you? Read a book on the hate that fills that region. Mein Kempf has consistently been on the best seller list in Arabic. Read 'Why I left Jihad' as well. very telling.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

(on a side note - I guess since the Natives in Caledonia want to re-establish the boarders as they see fit and want to retailiate for attacks on said homeland, that they are well within their rights to take up arms against the RCMP, OPP and local business owners?)

Well natives certainly didn't get a fair treatment over the past few hundred years. I would argue they are owed more than what we've given them.

The difference in that parallel being that the timeframes are large. Israel was only established in 1948. And by 1940 only 30% of the people in that region were Jewish. They've displaced (forcibly in some cases) many Arabs (711,000 palestinians according the UN's numbers) since then and that is a major cause for any of these conflicts. Israel attacked Egypt in the 50's. In the 60's Israel fought with several of it's Arab neighbors and conquered the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula, and Golan Heights. More skirmishes occured between Israel and Syria and Egypt over the next few years. In the 70's Egypt and Syria attacked Israel trying to regain some of the conquered territories.

WHITE DOORS: In 1982 Isreal attacked Lebanan and eventually captured Beirut. One might see this as the original cause of their particular conflict despite the fact that Israel did withdraw for a time.

Anyways, the roots of this conflict are clearly more recent than your Native example. As such I think the Arabs who have had territory taken away or have suffered an invasion at some point (1982 for Lebanon) have a greater "right" to defend themselves and retaliate than the Indians whose land was stolen from there over a century ago.