WWE Superstar Chris Benoit & Family Found Dead

[Freeway]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Sorry but I would say the vast majority of those who watch wrestling are under the age of 16 or those who have to be lacking some cognitive functions. I can appreciate the true sport of wrestling and the old time stampede wrestling, but the steroid junkies that you see on TV now are nothing more than an embarrassment. How a grown man can sit and watch two greased up roid junkies rolling around on a mat and fake hitting each other with chairs is something I won't understand.

Every person watches a wrestling match at some point during their life, but I am talking about that one person everyone knows that can't break free of the fantasy that is professional wrestling and watches it around 9 hours a week. It isn't even a sport it is an event... sports have some degree of truth behind them...

According to Neilsen, the vast majority of people that watch wrestling are males between the ages of 18-49. Some have university degrees. Some don't.
As much as I respect you and your opinion, you're grasping at straws and inventing statistics to prove your point. It's all well and good to say you don't like something and that you don't understand why another person would enjoy it. I, personally, cannot see why Everybody Loves Raymond got so damned popular.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Sorry but I would say the vast majority of those who watch wrestling are under the age of 16 or those who have to be lacking some cognitive functions. I can appreciate the true sport of wrestling and the old time stampede wrestling, but the steroid junkies that you see on TV now are nothing more than an embarrassment. How a grown man can sit and watch two greased up roid junkies rolling around on a mat and fake hitting each other with chairs is something I won't understand.

Every person watches a wrestling match at some point during their life, but I am talking about that one person everyone knows that can't break free of the fantasy that is professional wrestling and watches it around 9 hours a week. It isn't even a sport it is an event... sports have some degree of truth behind them...

Stereotyping works both ways... I'm sure a wrestling fan might look at you, being an internet message board poster, as someone who obviously lives in his mom's basement, has 3 screens he stares at all day, and has never been laid (or kissed). May not be true... but they'd be as justified thinking that about you as you are in thinking they're all white-trash hicks.

[ernie]

Just before the weekend Benoit went and saw his personal doctor. Besides saying Benoit didn't seem anything but normal on Friday and not mentioning the reason for the visit, the doctor did mention he treated benoit with testosterone because Benoit has low testosterone levels. A condition the doctor believes origniated from past steroid abuse.

http://www.ewrestlingnews.com/headlines/184983382.shtml

Plenty of data to suggest steroid abuse messes up your brain and leads to extreme mood swings not just rage (an episode of which may last for a signficant period of time...it need not be a short outburst).

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Any guy that can win popular elections in both civic and provincial elections in a dominant fashion, turns the provinces fortunes around after Alberat was left in a mess, is clearly not an idiot (even if he did mail in his last term)

Not to hijack this thread too much, but I don't really think anyone that cuts healthcare, blows up hospitals, cuts education and ignores needed infrastructure during a time when the province is experiencing significant growth leaving us in the woefully unprepared position we're in because he slashed on the assumption that oil would never rise above $12/bbl again is anything but a short-sighted idiot who judging by his level of education during the early to mid 1990s hadn't the slightest idea what a Hubbard curve was. Government is supposed to work counter business, not just like one... they're supposed to spend when things are bad (to generate work and complete needed projects cheaply), and generate wealth and not have to hyperinflate the market when things are good.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

It is. Sorry.

Wow. I can't believe I'm hearing this. What do you call the millions of people who watch soap operas? or entertainment news shows? or for a different matter, pornography? I can't believe those of you who are berating a cross-section of society that happens to like a particular sport. Particularly a sport where a loyal fan such as myself watches for the pure wrestling and not the dramatics. Chris Benoit was a pure wrestler and good at what he did, and unfortunately I won't get to see him wrestle ever again. If you cannot respect a man who was the best in his chosen profession (and in this case, it's wrestling), then I pity you.


If you ask me, UFC or K1 is far more barbaric and damaging to society than wrestling is, as these guys literally kick the ##### out of each other on a weekly basis FAR MORE than wrestling is broadcast. UFC is shown at least four times a weeks on Spike, and is now getting broadcast on both Sportsnet and The Score. In addition, since the inception of the Ultimate Fighter reality series, they've taken a dramatic approach a la the WWE. All of their feuding they build up on TV between the contestants and the coaches are pure evidence of this. So what I don't understand is why wrestling is receiving the flak it gets, yet UFC is getting a bigger reputation now?

Personally I'd rather see a well-choreographed wrestling match that are there to entertain and please the fans, than two testosterone-jacked meatheads looking to kick the crap out of each other for their own personal agendas. But that's just me.

[Burninator]

What do you mean when you say "pure wrestling"? Because you also say "well-choreographed wrestling." Are these one in the same? If you wouldn't mind clarifying for me.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Burninator

What do you mean when you say "pure wrestling"? Because you also say "well-choreographed wrestling." Are these one in the same? If you wouldn't mind clarifying for me.

Pure wrestling - watch NOAH, All Japan, Michinoku Pro, or the American-based Ring of Honor. They use pure wrestling match tactics and (for the most part) do not incorporate storylines or showboating into their matches. In Japan, it's known as Puresou Wrestling. Lucha Libre wrestling in Mexico does incorporate showmanship, but that's their style, and pride themselves far more on the match tactics too. Pure wrestling is choreographed, the difference is there is little or no drama used to captivate the audience. Rather, it's all based on pure skill, stamina, and technical ability.

In terms of real wrestling, Greco-Roman style is also pure wrestling, but that's because it exists as an entirely different style of sport than sports entertainment.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Wow. I can't believe I'm hearing this. What do you call the millions of people who watch soap operas? or entertainment news shows? or for a different matter, pornography? I can't believe those of you who are berating a cross-section of society that happens to like a particular sport. Particularly a sport where a loyal fan such as myself watches for the pure wrestling and not the dramatics. Chris Benoit was a pure wrestler and good at what he did, and unfortunately I won't get to see him wrestle ever again. If you cannot respect a man who was the best in his chosen profession (and in this case, it's wrestling), then I pity you.


If you ask me, UFC or K1 is far more barbaric and damaging to society than wrestling is, as these guys literally kick the ##### out of each other on a weekly basis FAR MORE than wrestling is broadcast. UFC is shown at least four times a weeks on Spike, and is now getting broadcast on both Sportsnet and The Score. In addition, since the inception of the Ultimate Fighter reality series, they've taken a dramatic approach a la the WWE. All of their feuding they build up on TV between the contestants and the coaches are pure evidence of this. So what I don't understand is why wrestling is receiving the flak it gets, yet UFC is getting a bigger reputation now?

Personally I'd rather see a well-choreographed wrestling match that are there to entertain and please the fans, than two testosterone-jacked meatheads looking to kick the crap out of each other for their own personal agendas. But that's just me.

Wrestling is not a sports, it's entertainment. A sport is something that is competitive, wrestling isn't that as the matches are decided before they get in the ring. A few major differences between MMA and wrestling is that these guys fight once every 3-6 months, this doesn't take a toll on the body and the personal life like wrestling does as these guys are in the ring and away from family for 11 months of the year, this is also a big reason for steroids.

MMA is an art, it takes years anmd years of training in different martial arts to get to the level of these athletes. Many have backgrounds as college wrestling, world championship Judo, BJJ champions.........as well, UFC tests for steroids and other drugs, the WWE says they do but they aren't sanctioned due to be sports entertainment rather than an actual sport, this is why you see guys like Batista and his cronies running around loking like they have been lifting weights since they were 2 years old. What's the punishment for them getting caught for drug use?

Why would Brock Lesnar decide to go to MMA? He had a good career going in the WWE didn't he? Why has Kurt Angle wanted to go into MMA for the past 3-4 years? As far as the barbaric point of view that you presented, how many deaths have happened in MMA over the past ten years? Now how many deaths in the WWE have we seen in the past ten years?

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Wrestling is not a sports, it's entertainment.

It's Sports Entertainment. It imitates an actual sporting event but the match outcomes are predetermined. But these guys still have to train like an actual athlete would and put their bodies through the same abuse.[/quote]

What's the punishment for them getting caught for drug use?

They start off with fines and then move into suspensions and then a possible firing. Some guys like Chris Masters have even been told to go into rehab. If you look at him now compared to when he first started he's not as bulked up. The WWE will allow some cases to go through if it's for a medical reason.

Why would Brock Lesnar decide to go to MMA? He had a good career going in the WWE didn't he?

He hated the travel. When he first got into it he figured he would do a TV show and then maybe a couple house shows a week and a PPV a month. He didnt think the scheduling would be as hectic as it was which was why he stepped away.

[Burninator]

I agree with you Unabomber. I would not consider the WWE (and it's similar organizations) a sport. Mainly because it lacks a few key criteria of a sport. It is not competitive in the tradition sense. Everything is pre-determined so a fighter cannot change the outcome. Their are no rules. They are disregarded so much that they basically don't exist. People routinely interfere with the fights making their outcomes void. I could keep going but there is really no need to pick it apart, as everyone already knows this. But those things are maintained and established in real sport of all kinds. But the WWE does not.

I am not really into many fighting programs, and that includes WWE, UFC, and boxing. The only one that I would lean toward would be the UFC. I am not some WWE hater, and I don't have anything bad to say against their fans. Except that calling it a sport is inaccurate. It is a show. It is not a competition. It is a drama. The whole idea of a sport is to determine a winner from the activity. Pre-determining the winner and choreographing the activity is the opposite of a sport. It's an act.

[loob job]

Bottom line, he's a double murderer, that's how i'll remember him.

[urban1]

I cant believe that for years until wrestling came out and said it was entertainment that people believed it was real. I remember having endless debates about how everything wasnt scripted and that results werent pre-determined. Aye!

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Wrestling is not a sports, it's entertainment. A sport is something that is competitive, wrestling isn't that as the matches are decided before they get in the ring. A few major differences between MMA and wrestling is that these guys fight once every 3-6 months, this doesn't take a toll on the body and the personal life like wrestling does as these guys are in the ring and away from family for 11 months of the year, this is also a big reason for steroids.

Wrestling is a sport. Greco-Roman wrestling is a sport in the Olympics; how much more sporting can you get than that? the WWE is sports entertainment, which is clearly obvious. The WWE does not speak for a large section of the pro wrestling industry itself, it is simply the dominant American brand. Again, go watch NOAH, All Japan, or ROH.

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

MMA is an art, it takes years anmd years of training in different martial arts to get to the level of these athletes. Many have backgrounds as college wrestling, world championship Judo, BJJ champions.........as well, UFC tests for steroids and other drugs, the WWE says they do but they aren't sanctioned due to be sports entertainment rather than an actual sport, this is why you see guys like Batista and his cronies running around loking like they have been lifting weights since they were 2 years old. What's the punishment for them getting caught for drug use?

Wrestling is an art that takes years to perfect too, what's your point? Chris Benoit started wrestling in his teenage years, and didn't become World Champion until he was 38 - that means he spent over 20 years of his career honing his craft. This isn't any different. And guys like Brock Lesnar, Kurt Angle, Sylvester Terkay, Bobby Lashley, Ken Shamrock, William Regal, Dan Severn, Steve Blackman, and countless others are all testament that wrestlers also come from different backgrounds.

Linda MacMahon was in the media today too, and clearly explained that there is a 3-strikes and you're out rule with the WWE Wellness Policy. Go back to one of my previous posts, and you will see a few examples of wrestlers in the last two years who have been punished for abuse. Chris Masters, Joey Mercury, and Randy Orton are to name a few.

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Why would Brock Lesnar decide to go to MMA? He had a good career going in the WWE didn't he? Why has Kurt Angle wanted to go into MMA for the past 3-4 years? As far as the barbaric point of view that you presented, how many deaths have happened in MMA over the past ten years? Now how many deaths in the WWE have we seen in the past ten years?

Brock has had one MMA match, Kurt hasn't even stepped in the octagon yet. Brock left the WWE because he wanted to pursue other opportunities, such as try out for (and subsequently fail) the Minnesota Vikings. Kurt Angle so far, is all talk about MMA. Until he gets in the ring, it's all just talk, and unfortunately an otherwise good wrestler is running his mouth before proving he can win in MMA, a completely different sport.

You are also asking the wrong question with regards to deaths in MMA and WWE. First of all, barbarism implies in-ring deaths, which in the WWE, I cannot recall any in-ring deaths in the last two decades except for the tragedy of Owen Hart, and that wasn't even during an actual match. If you are taking about life outside the ring, then yes - there is a problem with premature deaths, I can admit that. MMA has standards that I'm glad are implemented to prevent deaths, but you cannot imply that the WWE has far more deaths than MMA because its in a completely different context.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Burninator

I agree with you Unabomber. I would not consider the WWE (and it's similar organizations) a sport.

Have people been calling it a sport a lot? The term I've heard regarding wrestling is 'sports-entertainment', and it fits accurately and well. I haven't heard a lot of people out there trying to get it labeled as a sport, nor do I know anyone who believes even an inch of it (beyond the injuries) is real.

RIP Benoit family.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by urban1

I cant believe that for years until wrestling came out and said it was entertainment that people believed it was real. I remember having endless debates about how everything wasnt scripted and that results werent pre-determined. Aye!

You have to think about how brilliant that idustry was for so long, especially when it was hyper competitive when you had the WWWF, the AWA, the NWA and a billion regional promotions, that not one wrestler ever came out and said that it was fake.

I remember talking to a fomer Stampede Wrestler that stated that faces and heels couldn't hang out together at any time, if you were a heel you were instructed to be fairly rude to fans, if you were a face you had to be nice and polite and clean shaven.

Up until the 1920's the results were actually fairly legitimate, but there were a few guys that were just unbeatable, and could come into your territory and walk out with the belt. I think Frank Goch was an example of that.

When you talk about Wrestling now as it sport, its pretty clearly not a sport, however I will say right here that the people that do wrestle for a living are probably right up there as far as being athletes, and they probably have a tougher row then a hockey or football or and especially a baseball player. You have to consider that these people are on the road for over 300 days a year and often wrestle 5 nights in a row, and you never see these guys dogging it out there. The punches and the kicks and the chairs to the head and the drop kicks do damage (Read some of Mick Foley's books where he talks about his matches with Vader). But the worst damage is usually done to thier back as they have to use it to absorb impacts probably 30 times a match.

So what happens. I remember watching Bret Hart's documentary (which was excellent), and he told his son about the night that he cracked his sternum in a match, and he basically didn't get paid until he got back, so he rushed back. If there's one part of the wrestling game that does suck is how they take care of thier people, if you get hurt, you lose your spot, you lose a big chunk of your income, and you can be released from your contract without warning (see Eric Bischoffs treatment of Davy Boy Smith and Bret Hart).

So what does a wrestler do, he rushes back from injury or does the time honored tradition of toughing it out. He has to take steroids to maintain his build because when your on the road its tough to schedule the hard workouts that you need in order to look good. You've got massive injuries so to work through it you take painkillers, your mood swings so you take a ton of valium. Your on the road and away from your family and your board so you drink. You probably take some sleeping pills to come down after an exciting life. Its a horrible horrible life, but you do it because if your the rare one you can make an incredible living and a life of entertaining fans has got to factor into it right?

How much damage is being done by blows to the head. Even up to 5 years ago you rarely saw direct chair shots to the head, they were to the back with headshots being saved for important events. But ultra violent Japanese Wrestling tapes changed that. Then you saw blows to the head but the wrestlers would protect themselves with thier forearms, now for the realism demanded by the fans, most wrestlers don't even throw thier hands up and take hard shots to the head. I remember watching Trish Stratus who was probably the best woman wrestler in the world, but I cringed when I watched her because everything that she did was open. She never protected her head of her face. How long until more strokes like Bret Hart's happen because of head shots.

The WWE does have a wellness plan for testing, and they did implement it after EG died, but there are problems with it. Are they vigilant are they doing this for the share prices or out of a genuine concern for thier wrestlers. Steroid manufacturers are ahead of the game as far as testing goes, they have masking agents and metabolizing agents so that wrestlers can show up clean. Don't forget devices like the Whizzinator as well.


Vince Mcmahon is in a huge corner over this, I really don't think that this is the WWE's fault specifically, however I think that his share price and the depletion of viable talent is going to force some interesting changes.

Watch for wrestlers schedules to be greatly reduced, and for the insurance industry to get involved. Look for the Wellness program to be enhanced to an almost Olympic standard. Look for the WWE to have mental health professionals onsite.

Maybe some good can come from Benoit's problem if it can stop 40 year old men from dying before thier time.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Vince Mcmahon is in a huge corner over this, I really don't think that this is the WWE's fault specifically,

I think Vince created an environment where you had to be a big man to succeed in his organization. For that he is responsible indirectly for some of the steroid use going on in pro wrestling.

This is a quote from Benoit that demonstrates that:

In my early years in Calgary, the place to be back then was the WWF. My idols were the British Bulldogs and they were in there. It was basically a big man's territory back then. It was like you were never going to be nothing unless you were bigger. Not only was my weight a problem, but I felt my height was a problem also. I'm about 5-9 or 5-10.

[Ozy_Flame]

BTW, the steriods issues relates to size, and how one comes across on TV and to the live audience. Size has always been a concern for the WWE, as Vince MacMahon is well-known to favor the big men (and by big I mean well over 6 feet and 240 lbs).

This is why you see so many talented wrestlers never get 'over' with the fans. The smaller guys, the crusierweights, and the ones without physique generally never make it unless they have a great gimmick, personality, or look to them that stands out above the rest. Yet, these are the guys with incredible wrestling talent. Enter guys like Dean Malenko, Chavo Guererro, Konnan, Perry Saturn, Billy Kidman, or Ultimo Dragon. They are all respected around the world, but yet could never cut it in a WWE environment. Chavo comes close, but to be honest, alot of it had to do with his association with Eddie Guererro.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Have people been calling it a sport a lot? The term I've heard regarding wrestling is 'sports-entertainment', and it fits accurately and well. I haven't heard a lot of people out there trying to get it labeled as a sport, nor do I know anyone who believes even an inch of it (beyond the injuries) is real.

RIP Benoit family.

It's has mentioned as such a couple times in this thread as a sport. I don't know if they meant sports-entertainment and just didn't type it out or what, just wanted to clarify. Also some do seem to be blurring the line on the realism side of things.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

I think Vince created an environment where you had to be a big man to succeed in his organization. For that he is responsible indirectly for some of the steroid use going on in pro wrestling.

This is a quote from Benoit that demonstrates that:

In my early years in Calgary, the place to be back then was the WWF. My idols were the British Bulldogs and they were in there. It was basically a big man's territory back then. It was like you were never going to be nothing unless you were bigger. Not only was my weight a problem, but I felt my height was a problem also. I'm about 5-9 or 5-10.

I don't disagree with that but you almost have to remember that this is a ratings based business, and the fans have the last say in what they want to see. A few years ago McMahon set up a cruiser weight division and pushed it pretty hard, and it flopped because fans didn't want to see it.

WCW had an amazing depth of smaller wrestlers and those segments did terribly in the ratings (even though there were some other reasons for that)

TNA features the X-dvision heavily but even so, they're not making headway in the North American Market.

Wrestling is a fantasy game, and most fans want to see thier ideal warrior who is about 6-4 and cut from rock. Vince might be enamored with the bigger guys, but he's giving fans what they want to see.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Wrestling is a sport. Greco-Roman wrestling is a sport in the Olympics; how much more sporting can you get than that? the WWE is sports entertainment, which is clearly obvious. The WWE does not speak for a large section of the pro wrestling industry itself, it is simply the dominant American brand. Again, go watch NOAH, All Japan, or ROH.



Wrestling is an art that takes years to perfect too, what's your point? Chris Benoit started wrestling in his teenage years, and didn't become World Champion until he was 38 - that means he spent over 20 years of his career honing his craft. This isn't any different. And guys like Brock Lesnar, Kurt Angle, Sylvester Terkay, Bobby Lashley, Ken Shamrock, William Regal, Dan Severn, Steve Blackman, and countless others are all testament that wrestlers also come from different backgrounds.

Linda MacMahon was in the media today too, and clearly explained that there is a 3-strikes and you're out rule with the WWE Wellness Policy. Go back to one of my previous posts, and you will see a few examples of wrestlers in the last two years who have been punished for abuse. Chris Masters, Joey Mercury, and Randy Orton are to name a few.



Brock has had one MMA match, Kurt hasn't even stepped in the octagon yet. Brock left the WWE because he wanted to pursue other opportunities, such as try out for (and subsequently fail) the Minnesota Vikings. Kurt Angle so far, is all talk about MMA. Until he gets in the ring, it's all just talk, and unfortunately an otherwise good wrestler is running his mouth before proving he can win in MMA, a completely different sport.

You are also asking the wrong question with regards to deaths in MMA and WWE. First of all, barbarism implies in-ring deaths, which in the WWE, I cannot recall any in-ring deaths in the last two decades except for the tragedy of Owen Hart, and that wasn't even during an actual match. If you are taking about life outside the ring, then yes - there is a problem with premature deaths, I can admit that. MMA has standards that I'm glad are implemented to prevent deaths, but you cannot imply that the WWE has far more deaths than MMA because its in a completely different context.

I'm not talking about Greco-Roman or Sambo, i'm talking about the fake wrestling. You are saying that Linda Mcmahon said that there is a 3 strike your out rule, who ensures that the WWE is following that? Is there a board that makes these decisions? It's all about the money in the WWE, if someone is a fan favorite chances are they are not going to make an example out of them, not good business sense.

The WWE has ruined Kurt Angle, he has admitted that he has to be on several painkillers in order to make it through the day, does that sound like a great environment? WWE is huge, kids watch it and look up to these guys, yet nobody puts any focus on drug use and life quality in the business.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/vine/j...&entryid=80491

The link above is an article about the deaths in wrestling, they interview Vince and a few other wrestlers. Remember, these are the guys that young kids look up to, awful, just awful.