Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Bennett and Jankowski would've both really benefited from a year of healthy Jagr. Had he come to camp, been in shape, and had the time to get going, instead of parachuting in last minute, Jagr could've been nearly as effective as he was in Florida.

There were nights when that trio was the best line on the team by a considerable margin, and when Jagr left, neither managed to get things back on track.

Unfortunately, they had the out of shape, injured Jagr, not the legendary Jagr that we were all hoping for. But the way the whole line played when Jagr was somewhat healthy also showed that what Bennett really needed was linemates who could play at his level. Bennett performed much better with an out of shape Jagr than with Hathaway or Brouwer. How could Bennett and Janko have got things back on track when playing with a below replacement level right winger?

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

Unfortunately, they had the out of shape, injured Jagr, not the legendary Jagr that we were all hoping for. But the way the whole line played when Jagr was somewhat healthy also showed that what Bennett really needed was linemates who could play at his level. Bennett performed much better with an out of shape Jagr than with Hathaway or Brouwer. How could Bennett and Janko have got things back on track when playing with a below replacement level right winger?

Pretty sure if we put Johnny with inadequate line mates on the third line we would see the same sort of struggles and if he was not scoring he would have confidence issues. Johnny needs to play with players that complement his attributes.

Bennett is only 21- 22 and just starting to fill out that frame. I think he still has room to improve but he needs players who can complement his skill set, just as they have done with Johnny.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

Unfortunately, they had the out of shape, injured Jagr, not the legendary Jagr that we were all hoping for. But the way the whole line played when Jagr was somewhat healthy also showed that what Bennett really needed was linemates who could play at his level. Bennett performed much better with an out of shape Jagr than with Hathaway or Brouwer. How could Bennett and Janko have got things back on track when playing with a below replacement level right winger?

I think Jagr was in as good a shape as you could expect a 45 year old man to be without the benefit of a training camp. Had he been signed in July, it's not hard to see where it might have been a different result.

It was obvious before the season started last year this team didn't have enough wingers. Ferland is not a 1st line player, Brouwer is an AHLer, Versteeg and Frolik were both injured for long stretches.

Neal and Lindholm push Frolik to the 3rd line, and I think he's going to be just what Bennett and Jankowski need.

[PugnaciousIntern]

Not detracting from anyone else

But Johnny did excel with poor line mates. He essentially made Jooris an NHL player.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Pretty sure if we put Johnny with inadequate line mates on the third line we would see the same sort of struggles and if he was not scoring he would have confidence issues. Johnny needs to play with players that complement his attributes.

Bennett is only 21- 22 and just starting to fill out that frame. I think he still has room to improve but he needs players who can complement his skill set, just as they have done with Johnny.

I completely disagree. Johnny is the type of player that makes his line mates better. Kind of like a McDavid or Crosby(not to the same extent). Johnny is a superstar, and he would turn a third line into a first line. Bennett has not shown that skill set at all.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by VilleN

I completely disagree. Johnny is the type of player that makes his line mates better. Kind of like a McDavid or Crosby(not to the same extent). Johnny is a superstar, and he would turn a third line into a first line. Bennett has not shown that skill set at all.

I don't disagree with you completely; I too think Johnny is a superstar and makes those around him better. (Bennett I think could possibly do this to some degree with better line-mates) I guess we may have to agree to disagree partly but I think Johnny on the 3rd line with scrubs he would be some what lost. I could see him start to get frustrated and start forcing things, taking penalties.

[Monahammer]

Some of you are still terribly blinded by Bennett's draft position. It was clear even a hobbled jagr was the straw that stirred the drink on that line. They produced nothing without him.
If we could add to someone like Bennett and acquire Saros this team would be MUCH better off.

I also challenge anyone to statistically show me how Brodie is going to magically become a good defender after two straight seasons (~160 games) of bottom 6 level play.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I also challenge anyone to statistically show me how Brodie is going to magically become a good defender after two straight seasons (~160 games) of bottom 6 level play.

Wait a minute… Brodie is a bottom-6 defenceman? I guess that makes him a top-6 defenceman as well, since there are only six in the lineup. Problem solved.

(Seriously, though, it glitches my brain whenever people use ‘top 6’ or ‘bottom 6’ to describe defencemen, and I wish they wouldn't.)

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Some of you are still terribly blinded by Bennett's draft position. It was clear even a hobbled jagr was the straw that stirred the drink on that line. They produced nothing without him.
If we could add to someone like Bennett and acquire Saros this team would be MUCH better off.

I also challenge anyone to statistically show me how Brodie is going to magically become a good defender after two straight seasons (~160 games) of bottom 6 level play.

Brodie is going to be better because he's playing with Giordano. There are several years of tape to back this up, along with the accompanying stats. He also hasn't suffered any major injuries that would rob him of his mobility.

Brodie's biggest area of concern was decision making. When one option is always going to be "give it back to Gio", I bet you the "Brodie's Back" articles start showing up before November.

TJ Brodie is the least of this team's worries going into 2018-19.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Some of you are still terribly blinded by Bennett's draft position. It was clear even a hobbled jagr was the straw that stirred the drink on that line. They produced nothing without him.
If we could add to someone like Bennett and acquire Saros this team would be MUCH better off.

I also challenge anyone to statistically show me how Brodie is going to magically become a good defender after two straight seasons (~160 games) of bottom 6 level play.

Bennett is so bad he could be used as the basis for a package to acquire one of the few goalies in the league that look poised to enter that elite level of standing in the next year?

Logical.

Bennett and Jankowski were our only good bottom 6 players last year. We’ve added around them which I think will help them produce offensively, I’m excited to see what they can do this coming year.

I believe you may be the one being blinded by his draft position.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by VilleN

I completely disagree. Johnny is the type of player that makes his line mates better. Kind of like a McDavid or Crosby(not to the same extent). Johnny is a superstar, and he would turn a third line into a first line. Bennett has not shown that skill set at all.

Gaudreau, McDavid or Crosby couldn't put up points playing with players such as Hathaway or Brouwer. To say Bennett has no skill because he was forced to play with 4th liners who handle the puck like a grenade is rich man.

William Karlsson played with such juggernauts as Matt Culvert and Lukas Sedlak, at 24 looked like he would be either back in Europe or stuck on in the bottom 6 before getting a chance to play with some decent linemates and scoring 43 goals and 78 points.

Again!!! Sam Bennett just turned 22

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Gaudreau, McDavid or Crosby couldn't put up points playing with players such as Hathaway or Brouwer. To say Bennett has no skill because he was forced to play with 4th liners who handle the puck like a grenade is rich man.

Gaudreau did play with Troy Brouwer, and did put up points, so kind of a bad comparison.

William Karlsson played with such juggernauts as Matt Culvert and Lukas Sedlak, at 24 looked like he would be either back in Europe or stuck on in the bottom 6 before getting a chance to play with some decent linemates and scoring 43 goals and 78 points.

I think the most important thing for Karlsson was his shooting percentage. He would have scored playing with anyone last season as almost every 4th shot he put on goal found its way into the net. Karlsson reminds me of Joe Colborne in his final year with the Flames when he put up all those points on the back of a 19% shooting percentage. When he regressed back to his norm he was out of the NHL within a year. What is Karlsson going to do when he regresses back to his norm?

Again!!! Sam Bennett just turned 22

We keep hearing this. Sam Bennett also has 241 NHL games under his belt. Normally by time you hit 250 games we have a pretty good idea what type of player your are going to be. Bennett has 9 games to turn it around? Another comparison we hear a lot is Mikael Backlund, and how he bloomed late. While this is true for age, his game count was pretty accurate. Backlund teased after 245 games scoring 41 goals and 101 points, but he ended up with an injury shortened season the following year, playing on 52 games and scoring only 10 goals and 27 points. So he really didn't have his breakout year until 297 games played, although he was trending in the right direction. If we're using Backlund as a measuring stick, Bennett is still a little behind in total points. I would say, that based on the Backlund and games played comparisons, Bennett is going to have to break out this season and put up a 20/50 season. Anything less would be a disappointment based on the standards defined by consensus.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by New Era

Gaudreau did play with Troy Brouwer, and did put up points, so kind of a bad comparison.



I think the most important thing for Karlsson was his shooting percentage. He would have scored playing with anyone last season as almost every 4th shot he put on goal found its way into the net. Karlsson reminds me of Joe Colborne in his final year with the Flames when he put up all those points on the back of a 19% shooting percentage. When he regressed back to his norm he was out of the NHL within a year. What is Karlsson going to do when he regresses back to his norm?



We keep hearing this. Sam Bennett also has 241 NHL games under his belt. Normally by time you hit 250 games we have a pretty good idea what type of player your are going to be. Bennett has 9 games to turn it around? Another comparison we hear a lot is Mikael Backlund, and how he bloomed late. While this is true for age, his game count was pretty accurate. Backlund teased after 245 games scoring 41 goals and 101 points, but he ended up with an injury shortened season the following year, playing on 52 games and scoring only 10 goals and 27 points. So he really didn't have his breakout year until 297 games played, although he was trending in the right direction. If we're using Backlund as a measuring stick, Bennett is still a little behind in total points. I would say, that based on the Backlund and games played comparisons, Bennett is going to have to break out this season and put up a 20/50 season. Anything less would be a disappointment based on the standards defined by consensus.

Backlund also showed an ability to be a strong defensive and possession player since he entered the league. It wasn't until he started to contribute more offensively the perception of him being a great two way player was acknowledged. To your point t the Backlund/Bennett comparison is not a good one.

On the other hand Bennett has shown none of being strong defensively, offensively, or a strong possession player. If you're a subscriber, go back and read Kent Wilsons piece on the athletic, 'Sam Bennett is unlikely to ever become a top-six NHL forward'. Pretty stark look at where Sam is and some compatibles that show the likelihood of Sam developing into an impact/top 6 forward.

Arguing that Sam's development has been stunted by poor linemates or bad coaching is like looking at your kid in high school who is averaging 55% and blaming it on teachers and his classmates while insisting he's on his way to law school......don't hold your breath.

[N-E-B]

Wouldn't it be great to be able to say "Sam Bennett makes his linemates better" as opposed to "Sam Bennett needs better linemates to be better"? The difference between those statements, in my opinion, is pretty telling of who Sam Bennett is.

I know he's young but I really don't see the same upside as a lot of you guys still do. I see him as a good 3rd line guy who can play in your top six on and off. That's not a bad thing, but it isn't really what you hope for with a 4th overall pick.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Wouldn't it be great to be able to say "Sam Bennett makes his linemates better" as opposed to "Sam Bennett needs better linemates to be better"? The difference between those statements, in my opinion, is pretty telling of who Sam Bennett is.

I know he's young but I really don't see the same upside as a lot of you guys still do. I see him as a good 3rd line guy who can play in your top six on and off. That's not a bad thing, but it isn't really what you hope for with a 4th overall pick.

Well said.

If Sam can become a 20 goal / 20 assist 3rd line winger, that's a win in my mind.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by New Era

We keep hearing this. Sam Bennett also has 241 NHL games under his belt. Normally by time you hit 250 games we have a pretty good idea what type of player your are going to be. Bennett has 9 games to turn it around? Another comparison we hear a lot is Mikael Backlund, and how he bloomed late. While this is true for age, his game count was pretty accurate. Backlund teased after 245 games scoring 41 goals and 101 points, but he ended up with an injury shortened season the following year, playing on 52 games and scoring only 10 goals and 27 points. So he really didn't have his breakout year until 297 games played, although he was trending in the right direction. If we're using Backlund as a measuring stick, Bennett is still a little behind in total points. I would say, that based on the Backlund and games played comparisons, Bennett is going to have to break out this season and put up a 20/50 season. Anything less would be a disappointment based on the standards defined by consensus.

45 points gets you on average a team's 5th best forward in production. So he doesn't need 20/50 to avoid the wrath in my mind.

Get north of 35 points and he's becoming a third wave of offence for this team. More than 40 points and he's in the picture as a legitimate top six forward when it comes to NHL averages.

His shooting percentage, on ice percentage and shot and chance creation stats last year certainly suggest he should adjust upward.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

45 points gets you on average a team's 5th best forward in production. So he doesn't need 20/50 to avoid the wrath in my mind.

Get north of 35 points and he's becoming a third wave of offence for this team. More than 40 points and he's in the picture as a legitimate top six forward when it comes to NHL averages.

His shooting percentage, on ice percentage and shot and chance creation stats last year certainly suggest he should adjust upward.

What about the NHL averages for playoff teams and not just league wide?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

What about the NHL averages for playoff teams and not just league wide?

Worst top six forward (straight points sort) on last year's playoff teams had 37 points, cut off point for line one to line two was 54 points.

If Bennett puts up 45 he would be right in the middle of forward #5.

So about a half player slide from the league as a whole.

Interesting isn't it? A top six forward is no longer a lights out player.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Worst top six forward (straight points sort) on last year's playoff teams had 37 points, cut off point for line one to line two was 54 points.

If Bennett puts up 45 he would be right in the middle of forward #5.

So about a half player slide from the league as a whole.

Interesting isn't it? A top six forward is no longer a lights out player.

Gone are the days of Brendan Shanahan on the second line.

I really wonder if Bennett will get 3rd line icetime next year.

He was essentially gifted 3rd line minutes last year by default, his only real competition for minutes in the bottom half of the roster was Jankowski, and while promising, he wasn't exactly a dependable all situations player.

With the additions of Lindholm, Ryan, Czarnik and Neal, it's going to be harder for Bennett to stay on that third line if his play should falter.

In my mind, he gets an opportunity on the fourth line in the C spot to see if under a new coach he can be salvaged as a centre, but I really wonder if some of the acquisitions from this summer weren't made in part to help push him down the lineup.

A flames team with him playing 4th line minutes because Frolik and Ryan are getting 3rd line minutes likely improves the overall fortunes of the team, but it won't be good for Bennett's next contract. I can't imagine he'll be content with 10-13 minutes a night.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Gone are the days of Brendan Shanahan on the second line.

I really wonder if Bennett will get 3rd line icetime next year.

He was essentially gifted 3rd line minutes last year by default, his only real competition for minutes in the bottom half of the roster was Jankowski, and while promising, he wasn't exactly a dependable all situations player.

With the additions of Lindholm, Ryan, Czarnik and Neal, it's going to be harder for Bennett to stay on that third line if his play should falter.

In my mind, he gets an opportunity on the fourth line in the C spot to see if under a new coach he can be salvaged as a centre, but I really wonder if some of the acquisitions from this summer weren't made in part to help push him down the lineup.

A flames team with him playing 4th line minutes because Frolik and Ryan are getting 3rd line minutes likely improves the overall fortunes of the team, but it won't be good for Bennett's next contract. I can't imagine he'll be content with 10-13 minutes a night.

If they move Frolik to the left side (he shoots left) then perhaps he slides to the fourth line.

But if they don't I still think he slots behind Gaudreau and Tkachuk on the left side as far as depth goes.

The big change is to the right side where they have added two above Frolik in Lindholm and Neal ... maybe Czarnik. So much easier with Brouwer gone