Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Well I guess I don't think a hunch is enough to dismiss 200+ games of experience.

I wonder if Bennett is an advanced stats darling for the flames stats system like Ryan? If he was you'd think the third head coach in 2 years would play him like it.

What I'm saying is there is basically 0 evidence at all that Bennett positively impacts the team results by getting more icetime, and the organization has a deep desire to see him find success yet he still can't find himself in positions to be successful.

Do the flames still have a losing record this year when he plays more than 14 minutes a game? Do they still have a winning record when he plays less than 12 or 13?

Is this the Calgary flames or the Calgary Bennett's?

I do have to laugh at an appeal to authority, directed towards 3 coaches in 2 years.

[Flash Walken]

But it's not an appeal to authority, it's asking someone to explain how 3 different head coaches have not found a way to get Bennett more icetime in a situation where management must be deeply invested in putting Bennett in the best possible light.

Bennett's name has been in the trade rumours for a couple of years at this point, you'd think the organization would have a heavy hand in trying to make him look as valuable as possible, and yet he finds himself playing 12 minutes a night.

The conspiracy to keep Bennett from producing couldn't go right to the top of the organization, could it?

Basically you're suggesting here that the organization is deeply incompetent or conspiring against him.

What I'm saying is maybe the stats are accurate and he's playing with the minutes and role that he should.

[Vedder]

I like Sam, but what's happened here is no mystery. He doesn't have the hockey sense to produce consistently at this level.

It's the reason why he isn't on the PK despite being on the fourth line and having the speed and tenacity that's typically valued in that role (recall Peters tried this last year but quickly abandoned it). It's also the reason he shows flashes of brilliance but isn't trusted to play up in the line-up on a regular basis.

My guess is that he is being told what to do, where to be, etc, but doesn't execute. He loses the coaches trust and ends up on the fourth line with lesser players.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Vedder

I like Sam, but what's happened here is no mystery. He doesn't have the hockey sense to produce consistently at this level.

It's the reason why he isn't on the PK despite being on the fourth line and having the speed and tenacity that's typically valued in that role (recall Peters tried this last year but quickly abandoned it). It's also the reason he shows flashes of brilliance but isn't trusted to play up in the line-up on a regular basis.

My guess is that he is being told what to do, where to be, etc, but doesn't execute. He loses the coaches trust and ends up on the fourth line with lesser players.

IMO, this is a very accurate assessment and explanation of the hole Sam has gotten himself into.

Lack of hockey sense, vision and discipline . It’s an act and react game and ,unfortunately, his lack of good and/or quick decisions have moved him down the lineup.

Conversely, these also the reasons that players like Ryan, Mangiapane and Dube will continue to rise and/or maintain.

Too bad for Sam but not surprising.

[Matata]

He still plays a style that relies on him being more physically gifted than other players, he needs to create space to make shots or plays by being either stronger or quicker than the opposition, which worked great in juniors but he never developed any of those gifts beyond average at the NHL level. Now he's already at the age where agility and reflexes start to fade and while many other NHLers are able to handle that transition by becoming stronger and smarter players, Sam hasn't really shown much capacity to make those improvements. He's one of the dumbest players in the entire NHL and he might be only a few seasons away from being out of the league entirely.

[Itse]

Btw, when people are wondering about "why isn't Bennett getting better linemates", it's good to remember that modern pro teams are not dictatorships. Players tend to have some influence. If someone keeps being bounced around, there's a chance he's not a very popular linemate.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Itse

Btw, when people are wondering about "why isn't Bennett getting better linemates", it's good to remember that modern pro teams are not dictatorships. Players tend to have some influence. If someone keeps being bounced around, there's a chance he's not a very popular linemate.

Oh, good lord. Do you see who shows up in Flames social media pictures together?

Really stretching it with the mudslinging there.

You think Backlund and Tkachuk didn’t like Frolik too?

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Cory Sarich was talking about linemates and stability. He said it is incredibly difficult to play at a top level when you don’t know who you are playing with from day to day

You can not argue that Bennett has had consistent linemates since his rookie year.

It’s that simple. I hope for his sake that he requests a trade.

He's constantly killing plays with dumb attempts to beat people 1-1, has one of the worst shots in the league and can't play special teams.

All of this is controllable by the player himself and look no further than guys like Mangiapane and Dube who have passed Bennett over by simply being smart, diligent players.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Oh, good lord. Do you see who shows up in Flames social media pictures together?

Really stretching it with the mudslinging there.

You think Backlund and Tkachuk didn’t like Frolik too?

It's not mudslinging or stretching anything. It's just an obvious point. You do not know how the Flames end up with their lines, and what goes into it.

If Backlund says "I really like playing with Mangiapane" and Ryan says "I like playing with Lucic", then that stuff is likely going to matter. It's not mudslingling against Bennett.

But of course, just because he's a nice guy to hang with doesn't mean he's the greatest guy to play with. Even the fans can see he's a bit selfish with a hockey IQ on the lower side, who doesn't help bring anyones career numbers up. Doesn't mean anyone hates him, but it wouldn't surprise me if he's basically no ones favourite linemate.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I do have to laugh at an appeal to authority, directed towards 3 coaches in 2 years.

An appeal to authority? Seems like an observation of appraisal that has been consistent through three separate coaches, not an appeal of any sort?

Sam Bennett is supposedly some sort of advanced stats darling but the most important numbers paint a pretty bleak picture. Bennett has been surpassed by both Mangipagne and Dube. It's pretty scary to consider, but Sam is tied in the Flames scoring race with Travis Hamonic. Hell, his recent "hot streak" managed to catapult him past Michael Frolik by a couple points, a guy who hasn't played for the Flames in over two months. Sammy is trending to finish the year with 15 points. Not good numbers and just another step backwards.

I will agree with you on one thing. I hope Bennett marches into Brad Treliving's office and demands a trade. We could use the extra cap space and mid-round pick this summer.

[Harry Lime]

It would be awesome if some of the people crapping all over the player would watch the games instead of the statsheet. The answers are all there, and have been laid out in this thread and others. What you see on the ice is directly reflected in how Bennett is utilized, which can then be read on the statsheet. Skipping past the poor utilization paints only part of the picture.

Lessons can be learned from moving Backlund from the wing back to center. When the same thing was done with Bennett, a similar bump in the quality of play ensued. For some reason, there is a stubborn demand for Jankowski to stick in the center position. I believe that is hurting the team.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by New Era

An appeal to authority? Seems like an observation of appraisal that has been consistent through three separate coaches, not an appeal of any sort?

Sam Bennett is supposedly some sort of advanced stats darling but the most important numbers paint a pretty bleak picture. Bennett has been surpassed by both Mangipagne and Dube. It's pretty scary to consider, but Sam is tied in the Flames scoring race with Travis Hamonic. Hell, his recent "hot streak" managed to catapult him past Michael Frolik by a couple points, a guy who hasn't played for the Flames in over two months. Sammy is trending to finish the year with 15 points. Not good numbers and just another step backwards.

I will agree with you on one thing. I hope Bennett marches into Brad Treliving's office and demands a trade. We could use the extra cap space and mid-round pick this summer.

Jesus you guys have no sense of humour.

I don’t care what you say, it is funny to point to three coaches in two years as a source of authority

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

It would be awesome if some of the people crapping all over the player would watch the games instead of the statsheet.

Ah yes, the ever so popular "If you disagree with me it's because you don't watch or know hockey" argument.

[Bonded]

I used to be afraid he would blow up if the Flames traded him and now I am firmly in the camp that unless he gets a serious injection of hockey IQ he will continue to suck

[CliffFletcher]

Bennett just isn't very good at hockey at the NHL level. He has the worst hockey sense/IQ on the team, and hasn't shown any evidence he's learned to develop his game. Is there anything he's better at now than he was two seasons ago?

The fact Bennett doesn't even kill penalties tells you all you need to know about how three NHL coaches and their assistants regard his hockey sense and reliability. Then there are the senseless and momentum-killing penalties in the offensive zone, which I'm sure half the people in the Flames organization have screamed or pleaded with him about. Yet there he is still taking those penalties game after game, season after season. The guy is a blockhead.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Ah yes, the ever so popular "If you disagree with me it's because you don't watch or know hockey" argument.

Not the argument that I was making. If you look at a stat line without context, that is not telling the story. The easiest way to build that context is to watch a player through an entire shift, with the puck and without. That's not elitist. Eight year olds can do this, and if they were curious about a particular player, I'm sure that they do.

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Then there are the senseless and momentum-killing penalties in the offensive zone, which I'm sure half the people in the Flames organization have screamed or pleaded with him about. Yet there he is still taking those penalties game after game, season after season. The guy is a blockhead.

He's cutting back on the bad penalties. Only taken 3 minors total in the last 15 games, two of which were in the Nashville game (bad ones too, so they would understandably be vilified much more). The 15 game stretch preceding that, only 4 minors total.

Before that, it was pretty bad. Two per game, two in two games etc. But if we're calling his bad penalty frequency out, we need to look at the actual counting stats.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pla.../gamelog/2020/

[Johnny Makarov]

How can one fix a player with the hockey IQ of a kiwi fruit?

[GioforPM]

I watched the games, both with him at centre and at wing. His play at centre was better, but not so much that I thought it merited demoting Ryan, who’s been a mainstay all season. In other words, it wasn’t better than what Ryan had done previously until he got sick.

Maybe he should be at C but until Jankowski is dealt or cut loose that won’t likely happen. And if he does get put at C between Reider and Rinaldo or Jankowski, people will still complain about his lack of quality line mates (though Jankowski should be one - he had 25 points in 72 games his rookie year).

I think Bennett would be marginally better with different line mates. But the whole debate always strikes me as one where the coach should be sacrificing team goals to boost Bennett’s play. Can anyone honestly say that Lucic-Bennett-Dube would for sure be better than Lucic-Ryan-Dube (especially considering 2 way play)?

[btimbit]

I have nothing against the guy, but if he hasn't improved by this time next year, you trade him while he's still an RFA