Let's Train My Dog By Committee

[Russic]

Note: Bit of a long post so I'll provide notes at the end of it if you aren't interested in reading a novel.

I can't stand dogs that are poorly trained ... more accurately I suppose I can't stand dog owners who have failed to properly train their dog. I never had a dog growing up, so I just blissfully passed judgment on those with poorly behaved animals. Now that I actually have one I'm quickly realizing just how hard it is. I am doing something wrong and am wondering if the CP brain-trust has some ideas. First a little back story:

We picked up Harry, a 7 year old lab from a shelter around a year and a half ago. He was described as having slightly more energy than some, but we took on the challenge. He was decently behaved but seeing as we had a baby on the way we decided to hire a professional trainer.

He performed admirably in all his tasks. We worked very hard to make sure we completed our homework and in the end he could do the basic obedience stuff quite well (sits when we stop walking, lays down by command from a distance, comes every time we call, doesn't pull ahead of us on walks etc.). It is this really good behavior (and the ease at which it came) that confuses us as to why with some things he is so incredibly bad.

There were some "quirks" that our trainer had a harder time dealing with. He is an older gentleman who has had about 30 years of experience. He claims that in his 30 years he's seen very few with stronger issues than Harry. Our first task was getting him to stop going overly mental for tennis balls. His focus on them was almost unbreakable. I obviously would never do it, but I'm confident if you bounced a tennis ball in front of him you could break a 2x4 over his head and he wouldn't move. We were able to deal with this for the most part. He tries very very hard to drop the ball for you when you ask, but one of these days I expect his head to pop off his neck in excitement.

Next came leash aggression. Not sure what we did to cause this one, but it's gotten worse over the training period. The trainer we worked with had us escalate the tools to find Harry's tolerance level. Basically we started with a standard leash, went to a choke chain, then to a prong collar and finally onto a shock collar. I fully understand the arguments against these tools, but if we could stay on track and not attack my character I'd really appreciate it. The trainer said he only uses the shock collar in the most extreme cases and Harry is the first dog to ever not respond to it. It's not the snarling "I want to eat you" kind of aggression ... more of an over-the-top excitement that looks like he wants to eat the other dog. He means well, but it looks very bad and scares almost everybody (and rightfully so).

We've had to go back to our old stand-by, the Gentle Leader. For those unfamiliar, it fits over the nose and loops behind the jaw and then behind the ears. It kinda looks like a muzzle but it doesn't close his jaw. The main idea is it's an easy way to give a slight tug and have him look up towards you for a very light correction. Harry still goes balls-crazy around other dogs (only when both are on leashes), so in the end the gentle leader is the only tool we have that we can hold him back with, which is important as she only has one free hand with a stroller. I do feel bad as he hates it, but we've found no other way to control him.

Finally the main issue. He gets incredibly excited riding in the car. Doesn't matter if we're going to play frisbee or go to the mailbox ... he loses his shi*. He makes a sound similar to an ewok in a blender and hops around incessantly. As we get closer to our destination his excitement builds to a full-out bark, which he only brings out in the car. Upon arriving at the destination (assuming it is a dog park or my parents place to play) we have to leave him in the car for about 20 minutes until he calms down. We took him camping last summer and he lost his mind for 90 minutes. Maybe kinda sorta ruined the entire vacation. It seems silly that we go on camping trips but can't take the dog.

Now that there's a baby in the equation it's to the point where we've stopped taking him places. His excitement bubbles over, scares the baby and then we have a screaming baby on top of the most annoying sound in the world. Not fun. I feel guilt for this as there must be something we're doing very wrong. I thought taking him everywhere might help as he could grow to learn that car does not necessarily mean play time, but no dice.

Money is pretty tight these days, so while we are looking at further training, it won't be until fall or winter.

Notes for those who don't want to read the above 50 paragraphs:
- Harry is a 7 year old lab with high energy
- Worked with a professional trainer who was able to get basic obedience down, but some very strong problems persisted or got worse (leash aggression and freaking out in the car being the worst)
- Car rides send him over the edge with excitement and it's to the point where we actively avoid taking him anywhere.
- We are just coming out of a maternity leave, so money is slightly tight right now and we won't be able to afford more training until the fall/winter.

Has anybody dealt with this? Advice?

[Frank MetaMusil]

I'd suggest starting with some of the advice in this article:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...og.html?cat=53

A friend of mine has the brother of my dog and is extremely high strung/hyper compared to mine. They are basically polar opposites in terms of energy level. He feeds his dog quite a few marrow bones (the real ones, not store processed) and it seems to help.

[WilsonFourTwo]

Sit!

Did it work?

[Russic]

Originally Posted by WilsonFourTwo

Sit!

Did it work?

Actually he sits like a bat out of hell! Unfortunately he doesn't respect you (I'll work on that).

[burn_this_city]

He needs more exercise before going on car rides and playing with the tennis ball. If you burn off that energy ahead of time he'll be more relaxed for those activities. His unruly behavior can be tied directly to a lack of exercise.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Okay, I didn't read every word of your post, but a few things stuck out at me.

I'll start this with saying this. There is no such thing as an untrainable dog, especially labs. They are just about the most food/fun oriented breed, and can learn to do just about anything with enough patience, repetition, consistency, and kibble.

Firstly of all, you said he's obsesed with tennis balls, and you've tried to get this out of him. WHY? You've found a VERY STRONG motivator for your dog. If he'll do anything to get that ball, then instead of trying to train it out of him, use it as a training tool to work on the other behavior.

Secondly, the biggest problem with any poorly trained dog is almost always a lack of consistency/repetition from the owner. With a new baby in the picture I'm not suprised things have gotten worse with your dog. You say you don't take the dog places and and he gets excited and it makes the problem worse. Chicken and egg man. The dog is bored because you don't take him places, then when you do he gets excited and freaks out so you decide not to take him places. You're short on time, and the dog is missing out on the attention he used to get, it shouldn't be supprising that he's acting out, especially since it's a lab, which are usually pretty quick to figure out what they can get away with, when the owner isn't around/paying attention.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Russic

The trainer said he only uses the shock collar in the most extreme cases and Harry is the first dog to ever not respond to it.

I would doubt that but what else would he say.

This pooch might not fit the energy level of your family. Sounds like he needs more frequent exercise.

It sounds like the pooch is under-socialized with other dogs, hence the aggressive behaviour to other dogs. In your frustration, you are reducing his socialization, which is a common reaction (guilty myself in the past).

Dogs key off the emotions/reactions of their owners too.

You'd probably get some great clues or tips from a few episodes of Dog Whisperer. In a lot of cases, the behaviour of the dog is more often than not directly the result of something happening with the owners.

Your dog is watching you. Seriously. At the very least, a few episodes with Cesar Milan will put your head in the right place.

If that doesn't work, next stop - doggy prozac!!!

Cowperson

[DOK]

I can relate to the car issue. Here's what I can offer.

It's a behavior modification process. It can take some time, but it really will work if your consistent.

Take him to the car as you normally would and note when he starts to flip out, that's where your starting point will be.

Let's say you put him on the leash and walk him to the car, put him in and shut the door, and that's when he goes crazy.

Day 1 - Take him to the car as you normally would and put him in the car. Give him a treat and sit in the drivers seat and wait a couple minutes. The instant he calms down, if even for a second, say, "good boy" pat him and give him a treat. Get out of the car and go inside. Training done!

Do this process for 7 days, painful yes, I know, but truly it works. Depending on the dog, you will see him adjust to being calm at this point because he knows he's going to be rewarded.

Day 8 - Take him to the car, put him in the car, start the car. Again, wait for him to calm and treat him, pat him, etc. Turn off the car and go inside. Repeat for another week.

Day 14 - Take him into the car, start the car, drive around the block. Wait for him to calm and treat him, etc.

The more limited exposure you can give him the better this will instill the training in the long run. If you go through it too quickly he will just go back to his normal freaking out in no time.

Now, don't do this process and then decide to go for a drive with him. Be sure to separate the training from the car rides. You will have to drive with him, I'm guessing, so when you do, let him do what he does, so he doesn't associate the training with the driving.

The basis to this is to have the dog always please the owners. He knows that he will get a treat if he does x, y, or z. So, as dogs to, he will do that to get his treat. All he realizes is if he's calm he will get a treat. It's a little backwards from training him OUT OF being a spaz in the car, rather your training him to be good in the car.

We did this when our dog had panic attacks in the house when we left. It was three months of daily training like that. From walking to the front door, to driving around the block with him alone, to eventually leaving him home for 8 hours a day! We went in increments of 5 - 10 mins weekly, so I know the pain all too well!

We were in such a state with our dog that it came down to us needing to fix it, or to give him away, there was no other options. We tried everything we knew. We threw a chunk of money at a behaviour specialist who gave us this training program and to you I give it for free!! If you want to pm me, I'd be glad to help or explain more!

[VladtheImpaler]

Do what I did with my ridgeback - take him for 25km runs. He was like a cat - slept all day.

[DOK]

On the leash issue, I think it's ok to stick with the gentle leader. Try doing the rewarding when he is comfortable with it on so he knows that when he's calm with it on, he'll get treated.

Sounds to me like the leash issue is more of a recall issue when there is a ball around. This is extremely hard to break, but totally possible! The same as the car training, expose the dog to a ball, have him not play for one moment and then treat him. As days progress, expose him to the ball for longer and longer, treat him, etc. Then bounce the ball without him freaking out, etc. This will again, translate into him looking at you or your wife for direction when there is a ball in a field. He will look to you guys for the treat instead of going for the ball. The reason it's so hard is because it's unpredictable. You can control when he's in the car, but can't control when another dog has a ball! The longer you do this, the less he'll need the gentle leader because he will know that he cannot chase another dogs ball. A leash just holds him back, and if he wants it bad enough, he will get to it. It makes sense that he would get more aggressive with the stronger collars because it's causing him pain and holding him back from what he wants. There's a trigger in every dogs head that they will do themselves pain if what they want makes them more happy. Ie. my dog broke his tooth and cut his gums chewing on a bone, and was in pain, but was loving eating the bone more. It's a mental "click" that happens with dogs right from nature.

Ok, I'll stop rambling now!!

[fredr123]

We had a guy come to our house after our lab puppy wouldn't stop biting people. He used to work with RCMP dogs and still works with a lot of aggressive dogs on their last chance. He might be able to help.

PM if you want contact info.

[Barnes]

I have the same walking issues with my Rotty. She is not aggressive toward other dogs, she wants to play so badly she loses her %&*$. There is almost nothing that can break her desire to want to play.

If you think a lab going nuts scares people, try walking a Rottwieler doing it.

My wife and I are in the same position as you guys with money. Baby is 4 months old. We are looking at getting a behaviorist from Foothills Animal Hospital in Okotoks to come help us. Our vet recommended them. She had a little freak out last time she was at the vet.

[Sliver]

Set her free on nosehill.

[Russic]

Thanks for the responses so far. I like the idea of specifically training in the car and not just trying to work on it while on a car ride. Some points to respond to are below.

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Okay, I didn't read every word of your post, but a few things stuck out at me.

I'll start this with saying this. There is no such thing as an untrainable dog, especially labs. They are just about the most food/fun oriented breed, and can learn to do just about anything with enough patience, repetition, consistency, and kibble.

Firstly of all, you said he's obsesed with tennis balls, and you've tried to get this out of him. WHY? You've found a VERY STRONG motivator for your dog. If he'll do anything to get that ball, then instead of trying to train it out of him, use it as a training tool to work on the other behavior.

Secondly, the biggest problem with any poorly trained dog is almost always a lack of consistency/repetition from the owner. With a new baby in the picture I'm not suprised things have gotten worse with your dog. You say you don't take the dog places and and he gets excited and it makes the problem worse. Chicken and egg man. The dog is bored because you don't take him places, then when you do he gets excited and freaks out so you decide not to take him places. You're short on time, and the dog is missing out on the attention he used to get, it shouldn't be supprising that he's acting out, especially since it's a lab, which are usually pretty quick to figure out what they can get away with, when the owner isn't around/paying attention.

He's actually very trainable which is part of our confusion. You are right, no dog is untrainable ... I just don't have the knowledge at this point to approach his unique issue.

We tried to minimize the tennis ball fixation as he nearly took a little girls hand off at the dog park. Had he connected there is a very strong chance he would have been put down. He got my hand once and it was brutal. With the kid on the way our goal (at the trainers recommendation) was to eliminate that reaction.

You are correct as the baby brings a certain level of change. We do focus on getting him proper exercise every day, but of course sometimes he misses a walk. I can't say I notice a huge discrepancy in his behavior after a lot of exercise vs. too little exercise, but that could just be me seeing what I want to see.

Originally Posted by Cowperson

I would doubt that but what else would he say.

This pooch might not fit the energy level of your family. Sounds like he needs more frequent exercise.

It sounds like the pooch is under-socialized with other dogs, hence the aggressive behaviour to other dogs. In your frustration, you are reducing his socialization, which is a common reaction (guilty myself in the past).

Dogs key off the emotions/reactions of their owners too.

You'd probably get some great clues or tips from a few episodes of Dog Whisperer. In a lot of cases, the behaviour of the dog is more often than not directly the result of something happening with the owners.

Your dog is watching you. Seriously. At the very least, a few episodes with Cesar Milan will put your head in the right place.

If that doesn't work, next stop - doggy prozac!!!

Cowperson

I do believe the trainer when he says he doesn't use the shock collar often. He's an older guy and pulls no punches about his method. He could very well be lying, but I've met many of the dogs he's worked with and as far as I know none of them used the collar. I think there is a time and a place for the shock collar, but I don't think my particular situation calls for it.

I remember being so judgmental of people who don't give their dogs the amount of necessary exercise. After about 6 months of daily walks where he'd fly off the handle each and every time leaving me exhausted and frustrated it began to wear on me. That's kind of where I find myself now ... I walk my dog because it's my duty as his owner, not because I get anything out of it. That is breeding a pretty good amount of guilt, hence the thread.

I do watch the dog whisperer often and have read 2 or his 3 books. There must be something I'm missing because the techniques don't seem to totally work for us.

I don't want to give the impression that we don't walk the dog because of these problems ... he does get daily walks (probably 1 exception per week). Perhaps his walks aren't long enough, but we do try to get him out as much as we can. As for the dog park, I would say my negative experiences have me guilty of keeping him away from them.

[Tron_fdc]

Have you thought about doggy daycare? I have a Jack Russel, and I take him twice a week. He's completely bonkers to begin with, but that seems to have mellowed him a lot. He goes pretty stir crazy without it, and has a hard time with anxiety if he doesn't go.

He knows the days that he's going (stands on my chest at 4AM Tuesday and Friday) and pretty much crawls out of his skin on the way there, but it's better than him eating his way out of the house or taking dumps in my shoes.

[COGENT]

I don't have any advice as I am learning to train my pup as well. I will say it seems Harry got the right owner though, someone who cares enough to ask. Good on you!

[DOK]

Originally Posted by Barnes

I have the same walking issues with my Rotty. She is not aggressive toward other dogs, she wants to play so badly she loses her %&*$. There is almost nothing that can break her desire to want to play.

If you think a lab going nuts scares people, try walking a Rottwieler doing it.

My wife and I are in the same position as you guys with money. Baby is 4 months old. We are looking at getting a behaviorist from Foothills Animal Hospital in Okotoks to come help us. Our vet recommended them. She had a little freak out last time she was at the vet.

This is our vet, the one that I was writing about! She's really good and very helpful. I was so glad when she was willing to use email so we didn't have to come in and be charged everytime we needed advice. She gave a lot of specific training techniques and really made it seem reasonable. I would HIGHLY recommend her.

Miranda Bourque at Foothills Animal Hospital in Okotoks.

Fyi - it wasn't as much money as I thought it could be, but it was enough! Don't be scared off by the cost is what I'm getting at.

[amorak]

In before the "Let's raise my kid by committee" thread

[amorak]

Obviously I was making a joke above - no offense intended to the OP!

the missus and I have a puppy teacup yorkie-poodle cross and, like all dogs, he can be a handful to control at times as well.

Over my time with 3 dogs, I've found the most important thing is consistency in your action (training) and reaction (reward/behaviour). If you consistently train him and reward him for doing as you do want, and not scolding him for doing what you don't want, usually they come around.

Since you KNOW he loves the tennis ball, why not use that as a treat? Get him in the car, the second he calms down, give him the ball (keep it hidden and surprise him with it?)

[sclitheroe]

A lot of what is being suggested here (and congrats to many of the posters so far - you collectively know quite a bit about dog behavior) can be summarized in an excellent book called Let The Dog Decide.

Basically, shock collars and whatnot will never work - you cannot compel an animal to do anything (except out of maybe complete fear, which is a ticking timebomb) - the dog must decide to exhibit positive behavior for its own gain. As has been noted here, the tennis ball fixation is a powerful tool using this concept - if the dog would do anything for a tennis ball, he WILL do anything for a tennis ball, and you’ll have a fantastic tool at your disposal.

Highly, highly recommend the book for another perspective on how to train a dog - it makes the Dog Whisperer look like a hack.