Liberals to debate decriminalizing prostitution

[calf]

Link

[Tron_fdc]

I wonder how much money is in that industry? They're labelling it as a resolution that has been put forward by the Young Liberals of Canada, who say they want to improve the safety of sex workers, but I wonder if it also has something to do with a tax grab???

Regulate the industry, tax the hell outta them.....kinda puts a whole new spin on "Luxury Tax"

[Agamemnon]

Legalized prostitution seems to ratify and endorse a practise that society has more or less condemned.

Here's the question that I'll pose, as I find it works the same with a lot of 'socially undesireable' things. Prostitution exists... all over the place... in every single city in Canada (and probably lots of towns too). Soliciting for sex is illegal, and yet thousands(?) of prostitutes in Canada ply their trade every night, often with police supervision, instead of hassle.

The argument in favour of legalization, I'll pose, is not whether or not we're 'accepting' prostitution in our society; its already here. Accept it or not, it exists right around the corner, and isn't showing any signs of leaving soon. Traditionally, when people in a free society really want something (sex, drugs), criminalizing the practise usually creates and promotes a black market for the product, ensuring its availability for those who crave it.

If prostitution is legalized, maybe the sex-workers could be provided with safe accomodation and supervision, including condoms, blood tests, etc., etc. It might also assist the major targets of serial killers to be slightly safer than they are now.

I definitely hear the argument against legalized drugs/prostitution as a _very_ slippery slope, but at the same time, if the 'illegal' activity is all-pervasive in society, there seem to be two options; give everyone who practises that activity a fine/jailtime/criminal record, or decriminilize the activity and allow citizens to make their own choices as to their health.

Drinking is a pretty socially irresponsible thing to do, especially when you've got bars like the Back Alley with _filled_ parking lots and _drunk_ patrons, it doesn't take a dummy to see that there's probably a lot of deadly drinking and driving going on, but do we do much about it? Put out a bus on a road and hope to rope up a few dozen rummies while the other couple hundred get away w/ it. I'd rather lose sleep over drunk-drivers than losers who need hookers to get sex.

Phew, long rant, and fairly incoherent. Interesting topic though.

[octothorp]

The current legality of the sex trade is kinda odd. It's perfectly legal to hire a prostitute, but it's not legal to communicate for the purposes of making such a transaction. Which is really silly, because the law is claiming to punish one thing (prostitution), while actually punishing another (communication for the purposes of prostitution). I'm not sure how the law is really defensible. If the law determines that prostitution is not in itself an illegal act, how can the law say that communicating for those purposes is illegal? A guy pulls up to a corner and offers a working girl 50 bucks. That's illegal. Anything they do afterwards is legal, though, including him giving her the money.

What are the legalities surrounding escorts? They seem to get a lot less attention from the law, yet you would assume that they and their clients are breaking that law every time. Is it that you're actually paying for the escorting and anything else is seen as not being a business transaction?

Personally, I'm all for anything that would provide some amount of safety to the industry. Regulation of the industry could save a lot of lives both through prevention of STDs, and keeping track of these women so that you don't have another tragedy like the deaths on the Vancouver east-side.

That said, it would seem like political suicide for the Liberals to move forward with this, especially after the allegations surround Judie Sgro's stripper controversy. Liberals need to be careful that they aren't seen as being too friendly to the sex trade.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally posted by Agamemnon
Legalized prostitution seems to ratify and endorse a practise that society has more or less condemned.

Ah, but which society are you referring to? There are quite a few nations in the world that not only condone it, but actually encourage it as a means of business/personal introductions and practises. I'm fairly certain these industries are regulated and taxed, and the prostitution is practised in so called "industrialized" countries.

I'm fairly liberal when it comes to things like this, I don't use prostitutes, but am well aware that there are people that do; so if the industry was taxed and regulated wouldn't it make it an economical bonus to government, and safer for the workers who would otherwise do it anyway?


Interesting indeed!

[MarchHare]

Among Western democracies, prostitution is already legal in the Netherlands, New Zealand, and (I believe) Australia. I see no reason why it shouldn't be legalized, regulated (to guarantee the safety of the sex trade workers), and taxed.

Much like how the ill-advised "war on drugs" has done little to curb supply or demand but done lots to increase related crime, legalized prostitution would protect the women from pimps and also get them "in the system" so that they pay income tax and also qualify for welfare, CPP, etc.

As Agamemnon said, prostitution exists whether we like it or not; they don't call it the world's oldest profession for no reason. Rather than trying to shove it under the rug, it's far more pragmatic to legalize and control it.

[Mike F]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Mar 2 2005, 09:11 AM
I definitely hear the argument against legalized drugs/prostitution as a _very_ slippery slope

I'm dying to hear what the slippery slopers feel would be the end result of legalizing prostitution.

The creative ones came up with rampant incest arising from gay marriage, hopefully they can kick off as fun a debate here

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Mike F+Mar 2 2005, 06:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike F @ Mar 2 2005, 06:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@Mar 2 2005, 09:11 AM
I definitely hear the argument against legalized drugs/prostitution as a _very_ slippery slope

I'm dying to hear what the slippery slopers feel would be the end result of legalizing prostitution.

The creative ones came up with rampant incest arising from gay marriage, hopefully they can kick off as fun a debate here [/b][/quote]
It doesn't seem that hard to fathom. Public displays of bestial/human sex? Renting out animals for sexual use? Rampant availability of sex to minors (imagine your kids looking for something to do on Friday night w/ fake ID now!)?

Ah, but which society are you referring to?

Well... ours. Prostitution is easily a 'condemned' practise in North America, just as drug-use is. That's why they're semi-illegal.

[Bill Bumface]

_What_ _is_ _the_ _deal_ _with_ _this _all_ _the_ _time_ _now_ _?_

[Mike F]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+Mar 2 2005, 10:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ Mar 2 2005, 10:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mike F@Mar 2 2005, 06:22 PM

I'm dying to hear what the slippery slopers feel would be the end result of legalizing prostitution.

The creative ones came up with rampant incest arising from gay marriage, hopefully they can kick off as fun a debate here

It doesn't seem that hard to fathom. Public displays of bestial/human sex? Renting out animals for sexual use? Rampant availability of sex to minors (imagine your kids looking for something to do on Friday night w/ fake ID now!)?
[/b][/quote]
It's not enough to just speculate on it, you have to say it with conviction

E.g. Everyone will have their own midget on a leash to bring out of the closet to service them at the end of a long day!!!

Seriously though, before I take any side on this I would need to hear an informed debate between the "Victimless Activity" & "Victimization" camps.

I don't have a moral problem with prostitution per se, and if I could be convinced that it was, for the most part, victimless then I'd likely be in favour of legalizing it and cleaning it up.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by hulkrogan@Mar 2 2005, 06:43 PM
_What_ _is_ _the_ _deal_ _with_ _this _all_ _the_ _time_ _now_ _?_

I find it a lot easier to _really_ emphasise something using these _ thingys, as opposed to YELLING my point accross. Is there a more standard way to emphasize things? Italics would work ok too I suppose, but they dont' quite put accross what I'm tyring to communicate

Does that help? Do _these_ confuse?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Mike F+Mar 2 2005, 06:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike F @ Mar 2 2005, 06:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

It doesn't seem that hard to fathom. Public displays of bestial/human sex? Renting out animals for sexual use? Rampant availability of sex to minors (imagine your kids looking for something to do on Friday night w/ fake ID now!)?

It's not enough to just speculate on it, you have to say it with conviction

E.g. Everyone will have their own midget on a leash to bring out of the closet to service them at the end of a long day!!!

Seriously though, before I take any side on this I would need to hear an informed debate between the "Victimless Activity" & "Victimization" camps.

I don't have a moral problem with prostitution per se, and if I could be convinced that it was, for the most part, victimless then I'd likely be in favour of legalizing it and cleaning it up. [/b][/quote]
I have a moral problem w/ prostitution the same way I have one with homelessness. Its one thing to choose to be homeless (debate for another place I suppose), its another to be forced into homelessness.

Do prostitutes actually want to turn tricks? Are they trapped in a desperate social niche, with little hope for escape from their pimp/lifestyle?

If these people are basically sex-slaves, forced to do this work or end up homeless or dead, then I think there are some serious issues there that have to be looked at.

It'd be a poor show if legalizing prostitution meant that more women were 'forced' into that option as opposed to using a homeless shelter, because there is a 'job' available for them in the Red Light district.

[Reaper]

I'm of the opinion that by legalizing the communication and procurement procedures for prostitution that it could be cleaned up in terms of its unseedy element where women & girls are manipulated into the sex trade.

If prostitution was truely legal then "Pimps" would be subject to labour laws.

Prostitutes wouldn't have to worry about calling the cops on a bad trick or pimp because they wouldn't have to worry about going to jail because of their profession.

While I don't frequent prostitutes I do believe that prostitution does fill a societal need.

For some people (i.e. the socially marginalized, etc.), it can be their only non-masturbatory sexual outlet.

It ain't going away so we might as well clean it up and sanitize it a bit.

[Looger]

personally i have a moral problem with the activity, and the fact that our current society descends in most ways from the british tradition and claims to be christian i see as irreconcilable with decriminalization/legalization of trading money for flesh.

that being said if our society changes enough from that tradition then i guess public outcry tends to focus leaders onto which problems/issues should be dealt with.

if a large majority canadians can deal with legalized/regulated prostitution then i guess it may become a reality. i won't like it but i could probably deal with its existence, for one it will no question help the the people stuck in the life and it will probably cut out pimps/bikers to a large degree. there are some positives, no question.

i came across this story some time ago, i really hope that the ridiculous nature of this situation got cleared up for the best:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...30/ixworld.html

if nothing else it examines a potential pitfall of government regulation and what that means to the choices people have.

it is the extreme but it's something i didn't see discussed above.

[MarchHare]

and claims to be christian

Actually, Canada claims to be a secular, multicultural society.

i won't like it but i could probably deal with its existence

It already exists; how are you dealing with its existance now? If it was legalized and well-regulated, at least some of the more negative aspects of it (like you said, pimps/bikers/gangs/etc.) would be removed from the equation, and by making condoms and STD testing mandatory it would also reduce the spread of HIV and other diseases amongst prostitutes and their clientele.

As for your linked story, that's clearly a case of two well-intended laws (legalizing prostitution and forcing welfare recipients to accept a job offer or lose their benefits) having unintended results when mixed together. I'm not sure how the case turned out, but surely there's a follow-up story somewhere that says the government showed some common sense and didn't force her into prostitution.

[Looger]

MarchHare,

some clarifications:

the traditional spine of our country was christian, i know our government is on a political-correctness kick but the past is the past and can not be totally ignored.

the existence i'm referring to is government involvement/apathy towards prostitution. i know that "the oldest profession" is alive and well, i worked hotel security for a few months and quite obviously it exists.

[Looger]

Originally posted by MarchHare@Mar 2 2005, 08:38 PM
As for your linked story, that's clearly a case of two well-intended laws (legalizing prostitution and forcing welfare recipients to accept a job offer or lose their benefits) having unintended results when mixed together. I'm not sure how the case turned out, but surely there's a follow-up story somewhere that says the government showed some common sense and didn't force her into prostitution.

agreed.

however good-news results to small stories like that don't get published, sadly.

[Agamemnon]

Decent points.

personally i have a moral problem with the activity, and the fact that our current society descends in most ways from the british tradition and claims to be christian i see as irreconcilable with decriminalization/legalization of trading money for flesh.

It should be noted that the British were usually super-square when it came to public displays of sex, but they were all about it behind the scenes. I seriously doubt our 'British hertiage' is irreconcilable with decrimilization/legalization of prostitution. There are tons of prostitutes in Britain, just like everywhere. I also don't see a lot of 'traditional British culture' in our society these days... culturally I'd assume we're much more 'North American' (US) then 'Commonwealth' or whatever.

that being said if our society changes enough from that tradition then i guess public outcry tends to focus leaders onto which problems/issues should be dealt with.

Instead of changes, you might even say 'evolves', which puts a bit of a different spin on it

if a large majority canadians can deal with legalized/regulated prostitution then i guess it may become a reality. i won't like it but i could probably deal with its existence, for one it will no question help the the people stuck in the life and it will probably cut out pimps/bikers to a large degree. there are some positives, no question.

I'm not the hugest fan of 'if a large majority' type of talk. A very small minority of Canadians are prostitutes, and a slightly larger minority are Johns. Most likely 98% of us will never talk to, let alone employ the services of a prostitute. I'm more thinking that legalization will benefit a persecuted minority, as opposed to letting the majority enjoy the delights guilt-free. That said, I hear what you're saying, clearly if _everyone_ didn't want it decriminilized, there would be a problem.

[Reaper]

To quote George Carlin:

Selling is legal. F@5king is legal. So why isn't selling F@5king legal?

[CaptainCrunch]

No matter what happens legally, things like prostitution, are always going to be there and its going to thrive.

At least if we legalize it, we can maybe get the pimps out of the trade, and the drugs out of the trade, and we can protect the woman that are going to do it whether its legal or illegal.

Maybe we can legalize it, and then up the punishment for people using girls outside of the legal circle, underaged, whatever.

Legalize it, market it, and tax it.