Progress...

[Crazy Flamer]

Chatting over a few beers with a friend of mine last night, we started debating whether society has made progress in the last 5000 years. I thought I'd ask everyone here what they thought.

Has society made progress over the last 5000 years? Sure we are a lot more technologically advanced, but has that made our lives any better? Easier yes, but better? Are we more happy now then people were 5000 years ago because things are easier, or do the same issues that existed back then still exist now?

We still have wars. There is still genocide going on today. We kill each other, sometimes even our young, and sometimes over the pettiest of things.

Are we a better society today? Have we made progress?

[Calgary Flames]

With all the technological advances, I still think people in general are quite dumb.

[Faid1]

Originally posted by Calgary Flames@Feb 19 2005, 04:47 PM
With all the technological advances, I still think people in general are quite dumb.

Yeah and ignorance is bliss. And that's another thing... NOONE believes they are dumb. It's always someone else who is stupid


I think as a whole we are much happier. Many of us have well stocked fridges, live to 80 and have more leisure time than ever before.

But one thing I've noticed is even with the enormous wealth and entertainment people are never content with what they have. We are a culture defined by bitching about stupid things like gas prices and minor inconveniences of day to day life. People always want to make more money regardless of how well they live.

[Cheese]

ROFLMAO!!!! Mustnt of been any chicks around eh? Boy what a conversation!
Of course we were better off thousands of years ago! Dont youy miss living in your cave and hunting for your Brontosaurus burger? Man I can hardly wait to go grab my woman by the hair and drag her into my cave....see ya later!

[kermitology]

Violence will never leave humanity, nature is violent and to expect anything else from human nature is silly..

[Daradon]

Originally posted by Cheese@Feb 19 2005, 06:33 PM
ROFLMAO!!!! Mustnt of been any chicks around eh? Boy what a conversation!
Of course we were better off thousands of years ago! Dont youy miss living in your cave and hunting for your Brontosaurus burger? Man I can hardly wait to go grab my woman by the hair and drag her into my cave....see ya later!

Wow, don't even know how to begin with that one...

[Mike F]

The sheer number of medical advances made even in just the last 300 years make this a no-brainer.

People (for the most part) are much, much healthier and living much longer.

[peter12]

Long term rational thinking still remains a problem. Physically we are better off, sure I believe that.
But we still have the same problems and the same shinguard happening now that we did 5000 years ago.

[flamingchina]

Well, really, I think were are better off simply because we now (most people) don't have to worry about were our next meal is coming from, and if we have enough wood o keep us warm over the winter.
Are people happier? ehh who knows.
I think a better word would be content, and you can be content with anything, I think it's more of a personal thing than a progress thing (ie someone who isn't content now, wouldn't be content a hundred years ago and visa versa)
I personally think to themselves "ohh we were so happy before all this technology/pollution/progress came around, we should go back the way we were" are deluding themselves.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

It all depends on what you mean by progress, are humans still capable of untold horror against other humans. Yes, and that will always be the case as it is human nature to want to win in everything that is done, and this ultimently leads to conflict, which can in turn lead to the problems which the world has seen and will continue to see. However if you mean progress in a quality of life and technological advancement way with medical advancements, than that would definantly be the case.

[Daradon]

Originally posted by Mike F@Feb 19 2005, 10:30 PM
The sheer number of medical advances made even in just the last 300 years make this a no-brainer.

People (for the most part) are much, much healthier and living much longer.

Longer and healthier = better?

Are we happier?

Sure many of us might eat better, but a much of our society has gone the other way and become wasteful and gluttonous, while many others starve. And we seem to be losing community.

Has our lives and technology not made more actually more complicated more demanding?

Just questions.

[firebug]

I wonder what the suicide rate was 5,000 years ago, and how it would compare to today's.

Could be a good indication if we are happier or not.

~bug

[Mike F]

Originally posted by Daradon+Feb 19 2005, 11:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Daradon @ Feb 19 2005, 11:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mike F@Feb 19 2005, 10:30 PM
The sheer number of medical advances made even in just the last 300 years make this a no-brainer.

People (for the most part) are much, much healthier and living much longer.

Longer and healthier = better?

Are we happier?

Sure many of us might eat better, but a much of our society has gone the other way and become wasteful and gluttonous, while many others starve. And we seem to be losing community.

Has our lives and technology not made more actually more complicated more demanding?

Just questions. [/b][/quote]
Well, the original question was, "has society made progress", not are we happier.

But as for the second question, it's hard to say.

The big problem with the world becoming happier is that many of the advances made have completely removed worries form our lives, and it's virtually impossible to truly gain happiness from that.

We've completely eliminated polio from our culture, and while I can appreciate what that means I can't honestly say I gain happiness from it; probably because I've never had to worry about it and no one I know has been affected by it.

In a similar vein, I have no doubt that most people in North America who live in poverty are unhappy. However I remember watching a show a number of years ago where a reporter went to a social assistance centre where people were lining up for food stamps (or something like that) and asked the people how many of them had microwaves and TV's -- the majority raised their hands.

These people are much worse off than the average North Americans, and are unhappy because they know how much they are missing out on, but compared to the lives of the average person a couple of hundred years ago are they really that badly off? And wasn't the average person a couple of hundred years ago relatively happy, possibly because they didn't know they were missing out on many of the things we have today?

Maybe no matter how much we progress we collectively can't get happier because there will always be haves and have-nots.

[InTheSlot]

Tricky question. On one hand, if you put you and I in the BC ages, I'd say we probably would've been quite happy (assuming we didn't contract some incurable disease at an early age), however, had we known what kind of things there would be 5,000 years later in 2005 AD, I would definitely want to live here now, than back then.

I dunno about you, but I like life. I enjoy playing video games (particularly NHL 2005), something I wouldn't have been able to do 5,000 years ago. TV is certainly enjoyable, and I'm sure about 4 billion other people would agree. Food itself tastes better now, and there's more information available to us that makes us eat healthier and live longer.


Sure there's war and stuff now, but that' just human nature. People were fighting 5,000 years ago too. Maybe morals have gone down, people curse a lot more (I dunno about you, but I say the "F" word about 15 times a day, at least), and there's a lot more sex on TV...things like that, but so what?


I think the good outweighs the bad, when comparing 2005 AD, to 3005 BC.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Cheese@Feb 20 2005, 12:33 AM
ROFLMAO!!!! Mustnt of been any chicks around eh? Boy what a conversation!
Of course we were better off thousands of years ago! Dont youy miss living in your cave and hunting for your Brontosaurus burger? Man I can hardly wait to go grab my woman by the hair and drag her into my cave....see ya later!

Lol, I was going to argue 'yes', society has advanced, but this post probably proves me wrong

[Crazy Flamer]

Originally posted by Mike F+Feb 20 2005, 05:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike F @ Feb 20 2005, 05:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Longer and healthier = better?

Are we happier?

Sure many of us might eat better, but a much of our society has gone the other way and become wasteful and gluttonous, while many others starve. And we seem to be losing community.

Has our lives and technology not made more actually more complicated more demanding?

Just questions.

Well, the original question was, "has society made progress", not are we happier.

But as for the second question, it's hard to say.

The big problem with the world becoming happier is that many of the advances made have completely removed worries form our lives, and it's virtually impossible to truly gain happiness from that.

We've completely eliminated polio from our culture, and while I can appreciate what that means I can't honestly say I gain happiness from it; probably because I've never had to worry about it and no one I know has been affected by it.

In a similar vein, I have no doubt that most people in North America who live in poverty are unhappy. However I remember watching a show a number of years ago where a reporter went to a social assistance centre where people were lining up for food stamps (or something like that) and asked the people how many of them had microwaves and TV's -- the majority raised their hands.

These people are much worse off than the average North Americans, and are unhappy because they know how much they are missing out on, but compared to the lives of the average person a couple of hundred years ago are they really that badly off? And wasn't the average person a couple of hundred years ago relatively happy, possibly because they didn't know they were missing out on many of the things we have today?

Maybe no matter how much we progress we collectively can't get happier because there will always be haves and have-nots. [/b][/quote]
So has society actually regressed instead of making progress? Are we more greedier now? Are we not satisfied with what we have, always craving more?

There is no question that in some aspects, we have grown by leaps and bounds. Cars, airplanes, advanced medical technology, none of these existed even 300 years ago yet alone 5000 years ago. But where have societal values gone? Have they improved? Yes, I understand that we will never fully rid humanity of its violent tendancies, but are we in genreral, better to one another than we were so long ago? Are we truly happier with ourselves?

[Crazy Flamer]

Edit: sorry double post.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by flamingchina@Feb 19 2005, 11:37 PM
Well, really, I think were are better off simply because we now (most people) don't have to worry about were our next meal is coming from, and if we have enough wood o keep us warm over the winter.
Are people happier? ehh who knows.
I think a better word would be content, and you can be content with anything, I think it's more of a personal thing than a progress thing (ie someone who isn't content now, wouldn't be content a hundred years ago and visa versa)
I personally think to themselves "ohh we were so happy before all this technology/pollution/progress came around, we should go back the way we were" are deluding themselves.

Well I think I have enough wood this winter [live on B.C. coast where fir is cheap or I can get it myself in the woods or off the beach]. I agree with you that personal contentment is the way to happiness. Determining your success by possesions and whether you win or lose is ultimately a poor decision. I enjoy my possesions and other pleasures this world offers but I try to keep them in perspective as the pleasure I get from them will gradually wear off.
I have no idea if society has actually progressed [other than in technology], and I enjoy being alive today, but the older I get the more I doubt it.

[Hakan]

Originally posted by Mike F@Feb 19 2005, 09:30 PM
The sheer number of medical advances made even in just the last 300 years make this a no-brainer.

People (for the most part) are much, much healthier and living much longer.

Wrong.

That's a commonly held myth that people live longer now then they did 300 years ago. Before the industrial revolution and the emergence of city living people lived longer than we do because of that lack of toxicants in their diet, far less stress in their lives and, get this, because they didn't compulsively bathe.

You can go back and check parish records of baptisms and deaths. Some russian peasants used to live until they were over 150.

I remember reading a paper on this a while back I'll try to find a link.

[Mike F]

Originally posted by Hakan+Feb 20 2005, 07:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hakan @ Feb 20 2005, 07:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mike F@Feb 19 2005, 09:30 PM
The sheer number of medical advances made even in just the last 300 years make this a no-brainer.

People (for the most part) are much, much healthier and living much longer.

Wrong.

That's a commonly held myth that people live longer now then they did 300 years ago. Before the industrial revolution and the emergence of city living people lived longer than we do because of that lack of toxicants in their diet, far less stress in their lives and, get this, because they didn't compulsively bathe.

You can go back and check parish records of baptisms and deaths. Some russian peasants used to live until they were over 150.

I remember reading a paper on this a while back I'll try to find a link. [/b][/quote]
Everything I've ever read says we're living longer.

As this link points out, significantly longer on average and still noticably longer when you remove the effect of infant mortality rates :

"Life expectancy increased dramatically in the 20th century, especially in developed nations. Life expectancy at birth in the United States in 1901 was 49 years. At the end of the century it was 77 years, an increase of greater than 50%. Similar gains have been enjoyed throughout the world. Life expectancy in India and The People's Republic of China was around 40 years at midcentury. At century's close it had risen to around 63 years. These gains were due largely to the eradication and control of numerous infectious diseases and to advances in agricultural technology (such as chemical fertilizers).

Basic life expectancy numbers tend to exaggerate this growth, however. The low level of pre-modern life expectancy is distorted by the previous extremely high infant and childhood mortality. If a person did make it to the age of forty they had an average of another twenty years to live. Improvements in medicine, public health and nutrition have therefore mainly increased the numbers of people living beyond childhood, with less effect on overall average lifespan."