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Originally Posted by GirlySports
Rice getting in over Andre Dawson and Tim Raines, regardless of years on the ballot and all that, is such a joke.
GO Expos!!
Completely disagree...and i was a huge Expos fan as well.
He is a career .300 hitter, averaged 30 HR and 113 RBI a year ....for 16 years! MVP, 8 time all star in an era where there were a multitude of great OF's though he was mainly a DH the last 3 years or so.
Not sure what in those numbers are not HOF worthy.
Completely disagree...and i was a huge Expos fan as well.
He is a career .300 hitter, averaged 30 HR and 113 RBI a year ....for 16 years! MVP, 8 time all star in an era where there were a multitude of great OF's though he was mainly a DH the last 3 years or so.
Not sure what in those numbers are not HOF worthy.
Why did it take 15 years then?
Not saying that Rice is not deserving but he shouldn't go in ahead of Raines and Dawson. Raines getting 22% is sad! 800 stolen bases, 2600 hits and OBP of nearly .400 (with an astonishing 1300 walks!)
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Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
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Why did it take 15 years then?
Because others were more worthy than him during that time? The whole system is a joke...and why the hell "writers" are the deciders I will never know. But that doesnt take away from what Rice accomplished in his career....even if he was a grade A jerk to the media during his time...which also contributed to him not getting in.
Because others were more worthy than him during that time? The whole system is a joke...and why the hell "writers" are the deciders I will never know. But that doesnt take away from what Rice accomplished in his career....even if he was a grade A jerk to the media during his time...which also contributed to him not getting in.
Raines will get in....no worries.
Think so? 22% is really really low. Dawson at 64% has a better chance.
Next year Roberto Alomar should be a slam dunk. I'll be curious to see if Edgar Martinez gets in as a DH!
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Originally Posted by Sowa
Disagree Raines isn't HOF material in my opinion. Dawson I would put in. What makes you think that Raines deserves to be in there?
His defense and his OBP for a very long time (23 yrs IIRC) mostly. And of course his base stealing ability. A terrific lead off guy in his day...but not as good as Ricky.
Maybe Im wrong...but I think he will get i somewhere down the line....and he did all this pre steroids era.
His defense and his OBP for a very long time (23 yrs IIRC) mostly. And of course his base stealing ability. A terrific lead off guy in his day...but not as good as Ricky.
Maybe Im wrong...but I think he will get i somewhere down the line....and he did all this pre steroids era.
But unfortunately he did it during the cocaine era.
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His defense and his OBP for a very long time (23 yrs IIRC) mostly. And of course his base stealing ability. A terrific lead off guy in his day...but not as good as Ricky.
Maybe Im wrong...but I think he will get i somewhere down the line....and he did all this pre steroids era.
Actually after going back and reviewing his stats I think maybe he should get in. It would be a lot easier for me if had reached 3000 hits, but Henderson, Raines and Boggs were the 3 best leadoffs during this time and the other 2 are shoe ins.
Why did it take 15 years then?
Not saying that Rice is not deserving but he shouldn't go in ahead of Raines and Dawson. Raines getting 22% is sad! 800 stolen bases, 2600 hits and OBP of nearly .400 (with an astonishing 1300 walks!)
probably because he was a pain in the ass to deal with for the media.
Yet another candidate who reached the ballot with similar off-field indiscretions, Paul Molitor, sailed into the Hall on the first ballot with more than 85 percent of the vote and 299 more votes than Raines received in his first year. Molitor also played the first few years of his career with a serious cocaine problem. So why does Molitor get a free pass while Raines struggles to reach even a quarter of the vote? It's not about their playing careers; Raines was the better offensive player and played a thousand more games in the field than Molitor did. Molitor accumulated more bulk statistics at the plate, but his inability to play a position was a big part of extending his career. No, it might be about something far more insidious.
The electorate for the Hall, comprising BBWAA members who have at some point held their badges for 10 consecutive years (although they need not be active badge holders now), is overwhelmingly white; the organization's secretary, Jack O'Connell, did a quick count of African-American voters and came up with 19 in the history of the organization, at least one of whom (Hall of Famer Larry Whiteside) is deceased. Even if O'Connell undercounted current African-American voters by 50 percent, that would give us 36, out of a total electorate of over 550. Are we just looking at an example, then, of a white electorate treating drug use by a white player differently than it would treat drug use by an African-American player? Many academics, including Princeton professor Cornel West, have written about the way that the American media treats white drug users differently from African-American drug users; perhaps this inequity has seeped into its treatment of baseball players with distant histories of drug use as well, because any gap between Raines' and Molitor's on-field performances could not begin to justify the gap in their Hall of Fame vote totals. This is not to say that any individual voter is racist, but that pervasive societal stereotypes may be hurting Raines' Hall chances
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Who else was on the ballot with Molitor? And Molitor also won a World Series.
Thats kind of the thing about Baseball's HOF - there may some players who don't make it simply because of the competition in the years they are eligible.
Do I think Raines is being held out because of coke? Yeah, but not because he took drugs, but because I think of how much better he may have been if he hadn't been using coke.
Fergie Jenkins is a couterpoint to the drugs/colour issue. He still made the hall despite both those points.
I also wonder how many votes Jim Rice got because he has previously been so close and this was his last chance?
There are lots of things that may have resulted in Raines not making the Hall, but I still think the biggest is that Baseball's hall only takes one or two a year.
__________________
"The problem with any ideology is that it gives the answer before you look at the evidence."
—Bill Clinton
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance--it is the illusion of knowledge."
—Daniel J. Boorstin, historian, former Librarian of Congress
"But the Senator, while insisting he was not intoxicated, could not explain his nudity"
—WKRP in Cincinatti
I'm biased but Tim Raines is my favorite ball player of all time and I think although he doesn't have the kinds of 'triple crown' numbers that HOF outfielders have (esp HR and RBI) he is a ridiculously legit HOFer and I think a way better ballplayer than Rice..I get that you have to pay your dues on the BB HOF wait list for some reason, but at 22% now I'm not sure he'll ever get there. Dawson I also liked but Raines was a far superior player
Dawson and Rice are probalby more comparable, looks like Dawson is creeping up in the votes and will probably get in
Raines could well be the 2nd best leadoff man at least in recent history, I guess now that the guy who was easily the first is in (deservedly) maybe Raines' chances will start to climb
2009 Cooperstown inductees...
