Agnostic with "Catholic Guilt"

[alltherage]

This might be a little long, but for those interested, here goes:

Preface: I am arguing these points against a Catholic perspective, the one I know. I do not agree with all of it, as you will see, and I'm not going to argue for these points necessarily. I say this because I know CP religion threads get out of hand very quickly and I'm looking for some honest discussion.

Lately I've really started questioning the doctrines and teachings my parents bestowed (in good faith) on me during my childhood. I don't know where I'm at with things, but here's my predicament.

I disagree with some of the teachings in the Catholic church. Mainly, with Birth Control. The Church is against it because sex is for pro-creation as well as expression of love. It is not one or the other, but both. It is a disrespect to God to use it for one and not the other. Therefore, condoms are not OK, in vitro fertilization is not OK, homosexual relationships are not OK, etc etc.

My problem, is that Birth Control was rejected because it leads to a culture of unwanted children. It's a pretty solid point at first glance, because if you employ contraception, and get pregnant anyways, you have an unwanted child on your hands. I'm not going to argue when life begins, just assume for this explanation that it begins at conception. Unwanted babies creates a bigger demand for abortion, which kills human life.

OK, I get this. But I've been using contraception for 5+ years, and I've never had a "scare". Before my fiance and I became sexually involved, we decided that if she were to get pregnant, even while she was in school, while I was, whatever the issue, we would still have the baby no matter what.

So it seems that this "culture of unwanted children" does not apply to me. But it's a blanket rule, because we have to "bear witness" to everyone else and set a good example.

Therefore, I'm a sinner. OK, so is everyone else... but in the Catholic Church, the only way to be forgiven is through confession, which I struggle with. Firstly, I am not sorry for this "sin." So I can't be forgiven. Secondly, if I can't be forgiven, I can't accept communion- the main reason people go to mass weekly.

So basically, because Science and my personal moral standard have branched from the Church, I can't be a part of it if I tried... it seems like a deal breaker.

Not only that, with the advances in science, with evolution, the massive universe, all these other things I won't list here, I have a hard time buying in to this religion any more... but I still have the guilt. I still don't like to say anything negative about it, I still have guilt about my sex life, I still pray in my head some times without knowing it, and I still feel like I've made a choice to go against God... even though I don't know if I believe all this stuff.

Was anyone else raised Catholic or another similar situation? I find it hard to get passionate about finding "truth" when Catholicism always been presented as "truth" and I've always acquiesced without thinking twice. How do I deal with what might be mis-placed guilt? Can I even move on to addressing this when I haven't decided what to believe? Is it that easy- just decide? Do I have to wait for something to come smack me in the face, or do I begin some kind of spiritual journey? Advice is appreciated.

The topic for discussion is not "who's right" or "is Jesus a zombie", so please respect the discussion or please stay out of the thread. It's about ways to deal with these underlying issues... and has anyone else faced this?

[troutman]

I don't know if this helps - there are pages and pages of letters to Richard Dawkins from people that have struggled with losing faith:

http://www.richarddawkins.net/convertsCorner

http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8361.htm

I'm not trying to "convert" anyone. The original post just reminded me of many these letters.

[Jetsfan]

Watch the season finale of Penn & Teller's Bull***t on Showtime.

Its all on the Catholic Church.

[Mike Oxlong]

I was raised Catholic as well in a fairly religous family. While I do still consider myself Catholic although not a practicing one I have a lot of issues with the Catholic Church.

I do believe in a God or a creator. However I think many aspects of religion including Catholicism are man made.

I tend to avoid religious issues on here because they turn in to a gong show real quick and I feel they are somewhat disrepctful to the people who are religous and their beliefs.

Back to Catholicism - They do get a bad rap in a lot of cases and some of it is well deserved especially in the case of priests and the molestation of young boys. However they have also done a lot of good throughout the world particulary helping the less fortunate. That aspect of the religion is often overshadowed by the negative press.

I guess my main issue with the religion is how they seem to be stuck in their ways and the rules that are hundreds if not thousands of years old. Times change and with that I think religions need to adapt. With the birth control and contraceptive issue do they really belive that our God wants people in Africa to continue to reproduce at alarming rates and spread AIDS to each other and unborn children? What kind of God would that be?

There are TONS of other issues I disagree with.

For me if you live a good life, treat other people with respect and decency, help those that are less fortunate than you and are thankful for what you have then you are doing fine. We don't need to live by a bunch of rules that men made up thousands of years ago that just simply don't apply today. Maybe that is an easy way out for me so I can make it convenient on myself and follow the rules I want to but that's how I feel.

[Hack&Lube]

Read testimonials from other people who have gone through that situation.

I would recommend this board for dealing with theological/spiritual/philosophical/science/doctrine issues as specifically related to people who are encountering issues in their faith.

http://www.freeratio.org/

It totally swings toward agnosticism/atheism though but I am always adamant you have to challenge your beliefs and be prepared to shake or break them to be true to yourself.

[octothorp]

Good post. I grew up in the United Church, which is (or has become) almost the opposite extreme. Rather than things being black and white, absolutely everything was a grey area. Everything was essentially between you and God (if you believe in God, which was another grey area in itself). And unless you were into the social aspect of the church (I wasn't), it all seemed very superfluous. I think it must be a very difficult balance for any church: be flexible enough that you don't alienate your paritioners, but at the same time, be strong enough that they actually feel that you continue to be part of their lives and decisions. I consider myself an agnostic, but occasionally I will ask myself: if I were to go back to church, what would I want in a church. I dunno, the Quaker style sounds pretty good to me: an emphasis on social activism and a leaderless congregation style.

[MarchHare]

I was raised in a Catholic family -- baptized, confirmed, served as an altar boy, the whole deal.

I became an atheist when I was 16 or 17 for two reasons. First, I learned about the scientific method in high school, and I couldn't reconcile my faith in God with a lack of observable empirical evidence (and I'm aware that's entirely the point of having faith, but logic won out over superstitution for me).

The second reason why I abandoned the Catholic Church is because I started reading about the atrocities it committed over the centuries -- from the Crusades and the Inquisition right up to inexcusable and intolerable actions that continue to this day. The Vatican, even in the 21st century, has blood on its hands. In Africa, where the Church is still viewed as a trustworthy authority figure, Catholic officials are actively discouraging the use of condoms and spreading misinformation about their effectiveness at preventing the spread of AIDS (even going so far as to say that condom manufacturers purposely lace condoms with HIV). This horrible and misguided abuse of trust will directly lead to the deaths of thousands -- if not millions -- of Africans.

Or perhaps you recall a more recent case of a nine-year old Brazillian girl who was sexually abused by her step-father and became pregnant with twins. Her doctors confirmed that there was no possible way she could survive carrying the fetuses to term, so they performed an abortion to save the young girl's life. The local bishop, upon hearing of the abortion, excommunicated the doctors and the girl's mother. The child-rapist was not excommunicated. I want absolutely no part in any organization that would sanction such a great perversion of justice.

Like you, I went through a pretty severe case of Catholic Guilt because I'd been indoctrinated in the Church's teachings pretty much since birth, but I eventually got over it. Ultimately, losing the faith was the most spiritually liberating event in my life.

[alltherage]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I was raised in a Catholic family -- baptized, confirmed, served as an altar boy, the whole deal.

I became an atheist when I was 16 or 17 for two reasons. First, I learned about the scientific method in high school, and I couldn't reconcile my faith in God with a lack of observable empirical evidence (and I'm aware that's entirely the point of having faith, but logic won out over superstitution for me).

The second reason why I abandoned the Catholic Church is because I started reading about the atrocities it committed over the centuries -- from the Crusades and the Inquisition right up to inexcusable and intolerable actions that continue to this day. The Vatican, even in the 21st century, has blood on its hands. In Africa, where the Church is still viewed as a trustworthy authority figure, Catholic officials are actively discouraging the use of condoms and spreading misinformation about their effectiveness at preventing the spread of AIDS (even going so far as to say that condom manufacturers purposely lace condoms with HIV). This horrible and misguided abuse of trust will directly lead to the deaths of thousands -- if not millions -- of Africans.

Or perhaps you recall a more recent case of a nine-year old Brazillian girl who was sexually abused by her step-father and became pregnant with twins. Her doctors confirmed that there was no possible way she could survive carrying the fetuses to term, so they performed an abortion to save the young girl's life. The local bishop, upon hearing of the abortion, excommunicated the doctors and the girl's mother. The child-rapist was not excommunicated. I want absolutely no part in any organization that would sanction such a great perversion of justice.

Like you, I went through a pretty severe case of Catholic Guilt since I'd been indoctrinated in the Church's teachings pretty much since birth, but I eventually got over it. Ultimately, losing the faith was the most spiritually liberating event in my life.

I was confirmed, alter boy, everything as well. Although, my problems are not with the authorities of the church themselves, but with the beliefs of the church.

I got in to a debate with my cousin a couple weeks ago about the sacredness of human life, and when we got to the scientific part of it, I asked him simply, what makes human life sacred? His answer was based on cognition, which seems to be a common answer among Catholics. My answer, was that cognition only develops around the age of two years old, so therefore Human life is only sacred after you turn two. That debunks the possibility of human life happening at conception, and therefore opens up the abortion can of worms...

I also argued that the 16 year old toddler in the news recently does not appear to be cognitive... is she human?

His answers ran in circles and didn't really come to any kind of intelligent end, and what was most astonishing to me, was that he was studying to become a preist for two or three years before deciding he wanted to have a family. If he studied for that long and couldn't answer my questions, then where else can I go?

[jammies]

Although it was long, long time ago when I had my crisis of faith, I do remember that the basis of it was exactly the same as yours - I didn't think that many of the teachings of the Catholic Church about what was moral and immoral agreed with my personal thoughts, and more importantly, made much sense. Many of them seemed more like traps to ensure that everyone had something to confess rather than reasonable guidelines for how you should act.

Many Catholics just ignore the dogma that they disagree with; I know of many in my own extended family who practice birth control and don't care what the Church thinks of their actions, despite still going to church and professing Catholicism. Personally I think that's hypocritical, and I prefer your stance where it is more of a struggle between doing what you think is right and what the Church tells you is right. I would strongly encourage you to look at finding a religion (or lack of religion) that agrees with your personal principles rather than fitting your principles to your religion; you don't have to be a Catholic to be a Christian, if that is still your choice. The guilt is merely an admirable reaction to this conflict between authority and your conscience - change or abolish the authority, and the guilt will go away.

[photon]

Originally Posted by alltherage

My problem, is that Birth Control was rejected because it leads to a culture of unwanted children. It's a pretty solid point at first glance, because if you employ contraception, and get pregnant anyways, you have an unwanted child on your hands. I'm not going to argue when life begins, just assume for this explanation that it begins at conception. Unwanted babies creates a bigger demand for abortion, which kills human life.

See I think many who advocate against birth control vastly overstate the failure rates and consequences of using birth control intentionally to try do exactly what you are experiencing; have this big fear of unwanted kids hanging around like it's almost a given.. "use birth control and you are pretty much guarenteed of either having a unwanted child or getting a disease!"

You're finding out that reality doesn't really match the rhetoric.

Originally Posted by alltherage

OK, I get this. But I've been using contraception for 5+ years, and I've never had a "scare". Before my fiance and I became sexually involved, we decided that if she were to get pregnant, even while she was in school, while I was, whatever the issue, we would still have the baby no matter what.

See, that's very responsible IMO! You looked at all the benefits and possible consequences, you looked at the worst case scenario and planned for it, all the while adhering to the values you felt were important (sanctity of life, respect for yourself and your partner).

In my mind that would give more glory to God than following a dogma formed in a distant time. Does God want responsible people, or robots?

Originally Posted by alltherage

But it's a blanket rule, because we have to "bear witness" to everyone else and set a good example.

You're setting a good example by showing how to be responsible. Cars are dangerous if not driven properly, is it better to instruct my son on how to use one responsibly, or to restrict him from driving at all because it's dangerous?

Originally Posted by alltherage

Therefore, I'm a sinner. OK, so is everyone else... but in the Catholic Church, the only way to be forgiven is through confession, which I struggle with. Firstly, I am not sorry for this "sin." So I can't be forgiven. Secondly, if I can't be forgiven, I can't accept communion- the main reason people go to mass weekly.

... but I still have the guilt. I still don't like to say anything negative about it, I still have guilt about my sex life, I still pray in my head some times without knowing it, and I still feel like I've made a choice to go against God... even though I don't know if I believe all this stuff.

Keep in mind that the Catholic church isn't the only flavour of Christianity out there. That there are many interpretations out there could imply that God is ok with that; when I was a church goer I saw the different sects as necessary for the many different kinds of people there are. Some people see active worship with a full rock style band and everyone singing and jumping as a sin; others wouldn't go to church without it.

Again when I was a church goer, I saw the concept of sin as less a breaking of a rule and more of a call to introspection and evaluation of an action. The action is less important than the motivation. I saw God as looking at my motivations behind my actions. God wants me to be happy, to be respectful of myself, others, and God, etc..

You have guilt because you are going against what you were raised in, but you've already acting based on your own set of values, which is good. You just need to see those things you are raised in in a more abstract light maybe, rules made in different times and for different societies where you have to adapt them for today.

It's funny, my parents would never let me watch any cartoon with anything magical in it (magic is of the devil you know, can't have our kid summoning demons). I couldn't watch Smurfs even! Even today I can feel a stirring of guilt when I let my kid watch Smurfs . So sometimes guilt can be misplaced.

I don't know if this means a beginning of a spiritual journey for you, or just means that your relationship with your church changes. I know lots of people who attend a church of whatever denomination who don't fully buy into everything they say, and don't have any difficulty with it. They don't see it in terms of "right" and "wrong", taking a more pragmatic (liberal?) view of their faith with respect to specific doctrines and such.

I know other people who have moved denominations to find ones that are more inline with their values and views.

One other thing to throw into the mix, before I had a kid I went to church despite my doubts and vastly different ideas, out of a desire for community and other reasons. When I had a kid that crystallized things for me a bit, partially because of the things you mention.. I didn't want my kid to be burdened with unwarranted guilt (plus a lot of the other psychological hangups, but I wasn't raised Catholic, so the gunk from my denomination might not apply). If he wants to pursue religion when he's old enough that's his decision.

[FireFly]

Go with a different church with different beliefs?

When I was finding my faith again, one thing that bothered me about the Anglican church was their view on divorce. So I decided to try a different church. I found one that is more in line with my beliefs.

It's probably harder if you're raised Catholic because it has very different teachings from most other Christian denominations whereas the other denominations have minor differences, but it's worth a try. Go through your beliefs and find a church that works best. The one thing someone taught me was just to make sure that your beliefs can be supported by the Bible. If you're trying to justify immoral behaviour, changing churches probably won't work. (Not that I'm saying what you're doing is immoral, but if you find something else that doesn't fit.)

[MarchHare]

The one thing someone taught me was just to make sure that your beliefs can be supported by the Bible. If you're trying to justify immoral behaviour, changing churches probably won't work.

The second sentence doesn't follow from the first. There are plenty of examples of so-called "good" people in the Bible engaging in actions that I find immoral to the point of being repugnant.

[alltherage]

Originally Posted by photon

See I think many who advocate against birth control vastly overstate the failure rates and consequences of using birth control intentionally to try do exactly what you are experiencing; have this big fear of unwanted kids hanging around like it's almost a given.. "use birth control and you are pretty much guarenteed of either having a unwanted child or getting a disease!"

Yeah, totally. My mother had a misguided understanding of the birth control pill when she was teaching me about it. She told me the egg still gets fertilized and human life has started, and the pill makes it impossible for the egg to attach to the uterus and it dies. That's just simply not true. She wasn't lying to me though, she thought she was correct.

She also seriously overstated the effectiveness of contraception through my whole life. I don't think she was trying to be dishonest, but more just trying to share what she had learned (from some kook it sounds like).

You're finding out that reality doesn't really match the rhetoric.

No kidding.

Keep in mind that the Catholic church isn't the only flavour of Christianity out there. That there are many interpretations out there could imply that God is ok with that; when I was a church goer I saw the different sects as necessary for the many different kinds of people there are. Some people see active worship with a full rock style band and everyone singing and jumping as a sin; others wouldn't go to church without it.

Again when I was a church goer, I saw the concept of sin as less a breaking of a rule and more of a call to introspection and evaluation of an action. The action is less important than the motivation. I saw God as looking at my motivations behind my actions. God wants me to be happy, to be respectful of myself, others, and God, etc..

You have guilt because you are going against what you were raised in, but you've already acting based on your own set of values, which is good. You just need to see those things you are raised in in a more abstract light maybe, rules made in different times and for different societies where you have to adapt them for today.

Indeed. I get guilt from just challenging these doctrines... it's about how I was raised, once again. "Thou shalt not challenge the Lord thy God" or something along those lines.

It's funny, my parents would never let me watch any cartoon with anything magical in it (magic is of the devil you know, can't have our kid summoning demons). I couldn't watch Smurfs even! Even today I can feel a stirring of guilt when I let my kid watch Smurfs . So sometimes guilt can be misplaced.

My grandma almost had a nervous breakdown when she saw my 9 year old brother watching Disney's Hercules"

You know those digital 3D images that you have to cross your eyes to view? My mom thought that was some kind of magic/evil spirit crap. Turns out it's a computer image. Who knew?

I don't know if this means a beginning of a spiritual journey for you, or just means that your relationship with your church changes. I know lots of people who attend a church of whatever denomination who don't fully buy into everything they say, and don't have any difficulty with it. They don't see it in terms of "right" and "wrong", taking a more pragmatic (liberal?) view of their faith with respect to specific doctrines and such.

I know other people who have moved denominations to find ones that are more inline with their values and views.

One other thing to throw into the mix, before I had a kid I went to church despite my doubts and vastly different ideas, out of a desire for community and other reasons. When I had a kid that crystallized things for me a bit, partially because of the things you mention.. I didn't want my kid to be burdened with unwarranted guilt (plus a lot of the other psychological hangups, but I wasn't raised Catholic, so the gunk from my denomination might not apply). If he wants to pursue religion when he's old enough that's his decision.

Thanks for opining. I appreciate what you are saying here, and it sounds like we have/had a lot in common. I feel like I will try to take the good from my religion regarding moral foundations, etc and teach them to my kids. I also want them to be very respectful of religions, but to have a thoughtful process when they start wondering and thirsting for a spiritual life.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

The second sentence doesn't follow from the first. There are plenty of examples of so-called "good" people in the Bible engaging in actions that I find immoral to the point of being repugnant.

Then the question would be whether or not it's okay to avoid those repugnant things... I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the Bible telling you to do repugnant things?

[alltherage]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

The second sentence doesn't follow from the first. There are plenty of examples of so-called "good" people in the Bible engaging in actions that I find immoral to the point of being repugnant.

I think what Firefly is trying to say, is that if I'm trying to justify murder or something, another church is not going to condone it.

I guess I'm not trying to justify what I'm doing, I just feel morally sound about it and it doesn't match up with the teachings I've absorbed my whole life.

My head totally knows that having a sex life, or having some beers with buddys (responsibly) is OK... it's my heart that is still effected by these old teachings. If it was pure logic, it would be fine, but I feel like I have some kind of void that was being filled by religion... it almost feels like a massive part of my identity is breaking off. Am I a "whole" person without it? I feel a void...

[Clever_Iggy]

I'm with you brother. I was baptized, first communion and reconciliation. In the 6th grade, my teacher (Catholic school) was explaining the process of confirmation. He said that if you don't know why you're getting confirmed, don't do it. So I didn't. I was the only kid in my class that didn't.

The whole doubt thing started a couple years before that. Doubt in Catholic Church more so than religion entirely. I found that when the congregation would pray out loud or respond to the priest, they sounded like they were hypnotized. Then I started to wonder why girls couldn't do anything in the church. The whole thing didn't make sense and I started to really pull away. I stayed in the Catholic system because all my friends were but I would avoid any type of religion stuff like the plague.

In high school I questioned everything and ultimately gave up all contact with it. Now, I go at Christmas because my grandmother likes to parade her grandchildren around in front of her friends.

How practicing Catholics justify the legitimacy of the church's actions just boggles my mind. Justifying the fact that women cannot be larger parts of the church, completely ignoring homosexual issues within the church, continuing the ridiculous practice of celibacy (and having priests give advice on family, relationships, sex, etc...), taking outdated stances on many issues that alienate young members, selling the church's soul in WWII and the entire sexual molestation thing that plagued the church for years.

I've been done with the Catholic church for years ATR. I'm glad you're seeing the light too.

[Ethaniel]

Born and raised a Catholic. Confirmed etc.

I currently still believe in God, but I do not believe in organized religion. Organized religion is a fancy word for a Cult. Many people associate the word Cult with something negative and dangerous, but that is not the real definition of the word. A Cult is:
a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

This is what i believe. If god wanted me to be in organized religion I would currently be there. I Believe in what I believe and that is all that I need to know.

I realized this in Grade 11 at a Catholic High School during religion class. I asked the teacher how the Catholic Church and Organization is not in some way a Cult. He could not come back with any response that I could not counter and eventually kicked me out of class for it.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by alltherage

I think what Firefly is trying to say, is that if I'm trying to justify murder or something, another church is not going to condone it.

I guess I'm not trying to justify what I'm doing, I just feel morally sound about it and it doesn't match up with the teachings I've absorbed my whole life.

My head totally knows that having a sex life, or having some beers with buddys (responsibly) is OK... it's my heart that is still effected by these old teachings. If it was pure logic, it would be fine, but I feel like I have some kind of void that was being filled by religion... it almost feels like a massive part of my identity is breaking off. Am I a "whole" person without it? I feel a void...

I didn't think you were trying to justify it... rather trying to find some way that you don't have to feel like you should. There are other churches out there that agree with your beliefs and can support their beliefs using scripture. Find one that makes you feel welcome.

I tried to go without church for a while when I felt disillusioned. In the end, I found a church that works for me.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the Bible telling you to do repugnant things?

With the especially moral parts bolded:

Numbers 31:7-18

"They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings - Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba - died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho."

"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by jammies

With the especially moral parts bolded:

Numbers 31:7-18

"They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings - Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba - died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho."

"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

Well it's not really asking US to do that. In addition, if you're a Christian, you're following the New Testament...