Scouts Canada - "No Atheists Allowed"

[troutman]

I have two boys aged 5 and 7. We wanted to register them in Beavers, and took them to a local meeting last week. The boys had a blast, playing dodgeball, and building wooden airplanes. My boys were excited to learn the group was going on an over-night camp this weekend. I was in Cubs and Scouts as a child, and had great experiences, including a big trip to Queen Charlotte Islands.

I was filling out the application form, and noticed that the "Faith Affiliation" of the child was requested. That seemed odd to me. Why is that relevant? I looked at the Beavers web-site, and found this:

Beaver Promise: I promise to love God and help take care of the world.

I made an inquiry with Scouts Canada, and they told me the following:

We are not a secular organization. Scouting has always been a spiritually-based organization – since its inception one hundred years ago. To be eligible for membership, one need not necessarily belong to a particular religious denomination – in fact, one may be agnostic as long as there is some sort of sort of spiritual feeling present. Atheists would not be permitted to join.

Members, both youth and adults, are required to take the Promise in good faith. It is one of our founding traditions. That said, “God” may mean many things to many different people – and as I’ve said, what is required is a basic spiritual belief (not necessarily from an organized religion).
The program’s emphasis is on outdoor activities, leadership, teamwork and fun. There may be some references to spirituality (this depends on the particular group and the leader), or there may be comparatively few. Your leader is the best one to help you here.

Now I would not say my children are "atheists". In fact I think it is obscene to label any child before they are mature enough to decide for themselves.

Is it right for Scouts Canada to have this policy? Is it discrimination? Are they a private organization that can do whatever they want? Are they shutting out many children from their excellent programs?

I expect we will proceed with membership, and it could be there is not much emphasis on religion in this group. We are not a religious family, and I would not want my boys to be confused or feel left out. Maybe it would be good for them to learn about spirituality.

[troutman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Scouting

Scouts Canada defines Duty to God broadly in terms of "adherence to spiritual principles" and does not have a policy excluding non-theists.[11]

http://ffrf.org/timely/bsa.php

Although it advertises itself as a fun youth club open to any boy, Boy Scouts of America has a recent history of blatant discrimination against nonreligious boys. The BSA national office mandates a religious litmus test, forcing the parents of boys interested in joining to sign a "Declaration of Religious Principles" which must be returned with membership fees. The membership form states, "The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God."

http://hubpages.com/hub/Religion-and...to-Go-Together

Religion is a core component to the practices of the Boy Scouts of America. Challenges to this focus and the organization's apparent exclusion of athiests have been dismissed by reviewing courts. For now, the BSA can continue requiring boys to devote themselves to God and their County, primarily because it is a voluntary organization.

http://scoutdocs.ca/Documents/Duty_to_God.php

What does Duty to God mean? "[Duty to God] refers to a person's relationship with the spiritual values of life" (ibid) and not to certain beliefs about the material world. The material elements of religions are not important to Scouting. Just as Scouting does not care whether or not one believes in gravity, it does not care whether or not one believes that a god created the universe, in the material sense. Thus, atheists and agnostics are welcome in Scouting as both youth members and Scouters. Excluding such people violates the definition of the Scout Movement which states that Scouting is "open to all without distinction of origin, race, or creed..." (ibid:2). Of course, everyone in Scouting must be open to continual spiritual development.

[Ice]

Because an organization is faith based doesn't mean its going to be saturated with religion. There will probably be very little references to God and maybe it will cause your kids to ask you questions about it. It could open a discussion about what you believe, give you the opportunity to let them know you want them to decide for themselves what they believe. You obviously remember how much fun you had as a kid participating in a program like this one, they'll have the same experience.

As for religion, you could just put non-denominational, its not specific and doesn't give your kids a label at all. Both of my brothers were in scouts, I don't remember a lot of spiritual talk going on with them.

[Prototype]

I didn't, and still don't buy into any religion, and I was in Scouts from Beavers, through Cubs, and only one day in Scouts. There was no "spiritual" overtones or anything that would lead me to believe that you have to not be an athiest.

I think that is wrong for such a great program to deny membership based on what you do, or don't do on Sunday (for an example).

I believe in something creating us, so I don't know if I am a card carrying member of athiesm, but I'm not happy to read this.

Isn't there a church of "Sutter-ism"?

[octothorp]

In my experience, scouts was about going out into the hills and lighting campfires. And occasionally operating firearms. Seriously, that was it. Actually, I think the beavers and cubs organizations I was in had more structure, but scouts, we just had this nutty leader who just wanted to spend every tuesday night sitting around camp fires, regardless of whether it was -30, or +30 with severe fire hazards.

Anyway, more to your question, atheists always get the short end of the stick, and honestly I think it would be very hard to grow up atheist. I'm sort of glad that I was Christian for much of my youth and began a progression from that perspective toward agnostic atheism in my mid teens.

[PsYcNeT]

I was a Scout growing up and there is alot of faith-based learning and tasks. It was held in a Mormon church, and we were required to say prayers before meals, after meetings, etc.

Not to say it makes it a bad program. Scouting is still a fantastic experience for young boys, and builds a whole assload of character (hiking in the rain on a bush trail in Kananaskis with a 45 lb pack for 5 days over 70 km will do that).

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Lawsuit!

[macker]

My son is in Scouts and I was surprised how they handle things around Christmas having other religions explain their beliefs around Christmas time. I guess society will make sure that the Atheists get a chance next year to explain their beliefs/non-beliefs...or Scouts will get labeled a intolerant and old fashioned group. We will continue going regardless and parents need to learn to relax on some of this. This is just my take on it and I didn't even read the entire article but I think I know where they are going with it...

[czure32]

Originally Posted by troutman

one may be agnostic as long as there is some sort of sort of spiritual feeling present. Atheists would not be permitted to join.

Agnostics are just atheists without balls!

I dont recall any spirtual/religious undertones/overtones when I was in beavers/cubs/scouts. Much like Octothorp my experiences with it usually revolved around camping, fires and hockey

now all hail FSM!
RAmen

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by fotze

How about cheerleaders, they have spirit, yes they do.

[Frank the Tank]

Put down they are Satanists if they insist. I did it a few months ago when I had to go to the hospital and they insisted I put something in the feild. They left me alone after that.....

[photon]

But, there's no discrimination against atheists!

I would probably just put none and see where it goes. They probably aren't overtly religious (though it could depend on the group as has been pointed out).

I've read a lot of things out of the US about the Scouts and how they're very overtly religious, but never anything here.

[cyclone3483]

Troutie, you know where I stand on spiritual issues and I know where you stand.

That being said, I don't view this as a spiritual issue at all, but rather an issue of legal right to restrict membership. I am surprised Scouts are strict on spirituality. I always thought they were for everyone.

It is the right of any organization to determine who will be members. The Jewish temple exclude non-Jews from becoming Rabbis. The NAACP restrict membership based on race. Even the YMCA/YWCA could potentially restrict access to Christians alone (they don't, but they could if they wanted to). If it is in their government approved mandate (for non-profits and charities), then they can restrict membership.

Or if they are an unofficial organization (KKK and Nazi Party come to mind), I'm sure they have restrictive rules on membership.

You must know some of the legally stuff around that.

In this case, it is unfortunate that Scouts and Beavers are strict on this rule as it is a great place for boys to enjoy new experiences. I am surprised by it. I don't know if there is an equivalent alternative without the restrictions. It isn't palatable for those on the outside wanting in, but it is what it is.

I guess the argument could be made that you could start up your own organization if you are excluded from theirs. Much like starting up a German language school in Calgary if you have German heritage, want your kids to be bilingual in English/German, and there are no German language schools. Not easy, time consuming, money draining, etc.

I hope you find a solution. I'm sorry your boys don't have that opportunity. I feel for you, buddy.

[Cheese]

The Boy Scouts of America is a dying orgnanization EXCEPT within the walls of the LDS church who own a significant number of the chapters/groups in the USA and Canada and use it as part of their indoctrination.

In 1991, twin brothers William and Michael Randall, who had refused to recite the "duty to God" portion of the Cub Scout Promise and Boy Scout Oath, sued to be allowed to continue in the program (see Randall v. Orange County Council and Welsh v. Boy Scouts of America).[47] In addition, there were several other lawsuits involving essentially the same issues.[48] Ultimately, the courts ruled in favor of the Boy Scouts of America in each case.

After the decision, public opinion in some communities turned against the BSA; corporations, charities, and even some local governments criticized the policy, threatening to either cut off financial support or block the Boy Scouts from using public buildings for their meetings.

There has been opposition to BSA's membership policies from organizations and individuals. Some within the Scouting movement, as well as long-time Scouting supporters, parents, chartered organizations, and religious organizations have expressed opposition to the policies in ways ranging from protests to forming organizations that advocate inclusiveness. Some push for a voluntary change within the BSA, others seek involuntary change by filing lawsuits, still others choose to disassociate themselves from the BSA or encourage others to do so.

Some public entities and private institutions have ceased financial or other support the BSA, primarily as a result of conflicts between their nondiscrimination policies and the BSA's membership policies.

Id mark Atheist in BOLD lettering on the application and see if they deny your sons application. Up to you after that, but I wouldnt invest one penny into that organization.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by troutman

I made an inquiry with Scouts Canada, and they told me the following:

We are not a secular organization. Scouting has always been a spiritually-based organization – since its inception one hundred years ago. To be eligible for membership, one need not necessarily belong to a particular religious denomination – in fact, one may be agnostic as long as there is some sort of sort of spiritual feeling present. Atheists would not be permitted to join.

Its really sad the scouts still gets away with this, could you imagine if it was Jews who couldn't join, or Quakers, etc..

Members, both youth and adults, are required to take the Promise in good faith. It is one of our founding traditions. That said, “God” may mean many things to many different people – and as I’ve said, what is required is a basic spiritual belief (not necessarily from an organized religion).

This drives me crazy, they are basically saying unless your children have basic spiritual belief they are not worthy.

Now I would not say my children are "atheists". In fact I think it is obscene to label any child before they are mature enough to decide for themselves.

That sentence makes me all giddy inside

Is it right for Scouts Canada to have this policy? Is it discrimimation? Are they a private organization that can do whatever they want? Are they shutting out many children from their excellent programs?

I expect we will proceed with membership, and it could be there is not much emphasis on religion in this group. We are not a religious family, and I would not want my boys to be confused or feel left out. Maybe it would be good for them to learn about spirituality.

I think its discrimination, its sad that in this day and age its acceptable to ban a child because it doesn't profess worship in an imaginary being.

Maybe the lawyer in you wants to go sue them, certainly would find lots of groups in Canada that would jump on board, not sure how likely the success is since I'm not quite sure on the legal issue here in Canada, but here's the supreme court case which struck down a New Jersey ruling that scouts had to allow gay scoutmasters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Sco...merica_v._Dale

[icarus]

Hmm I never realised that, and I was president of the Calgary Venturer Council for two years. Interesting. Can't say I have ever seen any sort of practical concern or impact on this front, and I'm pretty sure none of us ever really thought about it much, even those who were non-believers. Thinking back to Cubs and Scouts there were always badges to be earned for faith, but I remember at least three badges available for this competency (Christian, Jewish, and Muslim... there may be more for other religions).

I do know that about half the Scouts Canada groups in Calgary are LDS groups and have little to no interaction with the other half of the groups.

[photon]

Originally Posted by cyclone3483

That being said, I don't view this as a spiritual issue at all, but rather an issue of legal right to restrict membership. I am surprised Scouts are strict on spirituality. I always thought they were for everyone.

Of course, I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise.

Just that they WOULD restrict on something so dumb is stupid. Especially for kids. Great thing to teach kids.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Time for them to bring back the swastika.

[troutman]

I think we will register as agnostic or n/a. The pros of the program far outweigh the cons IMO. I think a local group tried to start a secular scouting troop, but I don't know how far it got.