Educated in a Tent

[Flame Of Liberty]

An obsolete set of encyclopedias and a Bible beats out public school system when it comes to education.

Can the public school system sink even lower?

Educated in a Tent

[InTheSlot]

Are you actually an advocate for main-streamed homeschooling?

I bet this case is just one in a million. Put a lot more people out there and I bet the chance of "success" drops off a cliff.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by InTheSlot@Jan 14 2005, 02:17 PM
I bet this case is just one in a million. Put a lot more people out there and I bet the chance of "success" drops off a cliff.

And thats not really the main point of the article, is it? The author says it himself.

The point is the damage public schools cause, regardless of the girl in a tent.

[InTheSlot]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty+Jan 14 2005, 06:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame Of Liberty @ Jan 14 2005, 06:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-InTheSlot@Jan 14 2005, 02:17 PM
I bet this case is just one in a million. Put a lot more people out there and I bet the chance of "success" drops off a cliff.

And thats not really the main point of the article, is it? The author says it himself.

The point is the damage public schools cause, regardless of the girl in a tent. [/b][/quote]
Right, well even if you agree with the author that public schools cause "damage", I again have to ask, if you don't think public schools are the answer...then are you a home-school advocate?

[JayP]

The column fails to mention the home-schooled girl's life outside of school. If she has no friends (which is quite common with kids home schooled their entire life) then there is definitely damage to her social skills that will affect her for the rest of her life. You can have the best degree in the world, but other people will always have that same degree and the social edge to boot.

Now I'm not saying home-schooling is terrible or anything, there's just two sides to the story (which the writer never mentioned). The idea of closing down public schools is laughable. Not every parent can afford to pay for private school and not every parent has the time to teach their child (needing a job for income).

[RougeUnderoos]

I can think of a few other things to blame besides "public school" for teenage drug abuse and sex. You know, things like "the rest of society that children spend 90% of their time in".

What do we expect from public school teachers exactly? According to this genius, apparently the answer is "everything".

That article is pretty silly. A Steven King novel is evidence that public schools don't work and should be shut down? I can think of another Steven King novel that tells the story of a haunted hotel in Colorado.

Somebody call the Marriot and tell them to shut their doors.

[Pileon]

The key to the article is that the girl in the tent was "raised" by her father. One of the biggest problems facing schools is that the parents can't or won't take an interest in their child's education. Can't - meaning they are a single parent or are working a second job to pay the bills. Won't - meaning they are too busy in their own lives to pay much attention to their children.

My memories of school are kind of hazy (OK my memory is kind of hazy - period ) but I don't recall many of my friends being bussed in, having to stay late because there was no one at home, not bringing 2 parents to parent/teacher interviews (do they still have those).

Public school is a big beast. It hasn't done terribly well at adapting. We tend to look at a 21st century problem through 1960's lenses. The biggest thing is that failures in education aren't just a school problem - they are a social problem.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by InTheSlot@Jan 14 2005, 06:26 PM
Right, well even if you agree with the author that public schools cause "damage", I again have to ask, if you don't think public schools are the answer...then are you a home-school advocate?

Private schools or homeschooling. The choice is up to the family. Not up to anyone else (including government officials).

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by JayP@Jan 14 2005, 08:24 PM
The column fails to mention the home-schooled girl's life outside of school. If she has no friends (which is quite common with kids home schooled their entire life) then there is definitely damage to her social skills that will affect her for the rest of her life. You can have the best degree in the world, but other people will always have that same degree and the social edge to boot.

Now I'm not saying home-schooling is terrible or anything, there's just two sides to the story (which the writer never mentioned). The idea of closing down public schools is laughable. Not every parent can afford to pay for private school and not every parent has the time to teach their child (needing a job for income).

And what if she does? The point is that some parents are forced to go to great lenghts to protect their kids from a public school environment. Of course living as a hermit is not the best thing, but it is sad when people are pressed to do things they otherwise wouldnt do because they feel they have to protect their kids. Nobody said living in a tent is a solution.

Of course not every parent can afford to pay for private school. And you know why? Because they are taxed to fund public schools eventhough they would rather send their kids to a private school. But they cant because they cant keep their money and decide themselves.

[Daradon]

Ahhhh, an 'unbiased article' with very little supporting evidence. FANTASTIC!!!

Let's also blame the teachers and the system for problems that could very well be the parents fault.

Wrap it up, and package it to the unwitting. AMAZING!!!

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Daradon@Jan 15 2005, 02:52 PM
Ahhhh, an 'unbiased article' with very little supporting evidence. FANTASTIC!!!

Let's also blame the teachers and the system for problems that could very well be the parents fault.

Wrap it up, and package it to the unwitting. AMAZING!!!

Unbiased article? Huh? It is a commentary. And they have bias. Nothing wrong with that.

Supporting evidence is in the memory of everyone who attended public schools.

[Daradon]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty+Jan 15 2005, 07:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame Of Liberty @ Jan 15 2005, 07:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Daradon@Jan 15 2005, 02:52 PM
Ahhhh, an 'unbiased article' with very little supporting evidence. FANTASTIC!!!

Let's also blame the teachers and the system for problems that could very well be the parents fault.

Wrap it up, and package it to the unwitting. AMAZING!!!

Unbiased article? Huh? It is a commentary. And they have bias. Nothing wrong with that.

Supporting evidence is in the memory of everyone who attended public schools. [/b][/quote]
Exactly, commentary. Everyone has it.

And supporting evidence from those who attended public schools? Well I guess that means me (ok catholic, but still public funded in AB is chosen) and maybe you as well? I don't get your argument? This is your story?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Daradon+Jan 15 2005, 02:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Daradon @ Jan 15 2005, 02:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Unbiased article? Huh? It is a commentary. And they have bias. Nothing wrong with that.

Supporting evidence is in the memory of everyone who attended public schools.

Exactly, commentary. Everyone has it.

And supporting evidence from those who attended public schools? Well I guess that means me (ok catholic, but still public funded in AB is chosen) and maybe you as well? I don't get your argument? This is your story? [/b][/quote]
Of course it is not my story.

What I was trying to say that everyone who attended a public school knows about them. Its not like the article is about living on Mars.

Do you need an evidence that:

- you cannot decide not to fund a public school if you want to attend private school
- you cannot choose your curriculum - it is given "from above"
- you cannot choose your class (in the sense if you are assigned to a class full of asocials, you are pretty much stuck there)
- if the school is crap, you cannot help it because every other public school is of the same kind
- you have virtually no choice when it comes to your education because someone else think they know what is best for you

etc. etc.

[Agamemnon]

Same argument, different issue.

You're going to have a pretty hard time convincing everyone here (and anywhere) that a governmentless society would be all that you've been cracking it up to be. Sure institutions make mistakes and have flaws, thats why you fix them.

If your car didn't start tomorrow morning, would you scrap it and buy a new one? Or would you get jumper-cables...

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty+Jan 14 2005, 06:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame Of Liberty @ Jan 14 2005, 06:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-InTheSlot@Jan 14 2005, 02:17 PM
I bet this case is just one in a million. Put a lot more people out there and I bet the chance of "success" drops off a cliff.

And thats not really the main point of the article, is it? The author says it himself.

The point is the damage public schools cause, regardless of the girl in a tent. [/b][/quote]
Actually the point seems to be about "the damage public schools cause according to some guy in another town who overheard a conversation between three young girls he doesn't know".

Scrapping public schools, as this moron advocates, will mean that millions of children in North America get no education at all.

I've had plenty of experience with "home-schooled" children and most of that experience was of the "picking up the pieces" variety. One former student of mine (in a private school!) had a real independent mother who didn't buy what the government was selling and decided to "home school" her son. Public shools are far from perfect, but as I sat there teaching her 17 year-old son how to read and count, I came to the conclusion that he would have been far better off if someone (the government) had been looking out for him.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Jan 15 2005, 06:11 PM
Same argument, different issue.

You're going to have a pretty hard time convincing everyone here (and anywhere) that a governmentless society would be all that you've been cracking it up to be. Sure institutions make mistakes and have flaws, thats why you fix them.

If your car didn't start tomorrow morning, would you scrap it and buy a new one? Or would you get jumper-cables...

Well yeah, same argument, I am trying to be consistent with my opinions. Shame on me.

I am not too sure what you mean by "You're going to have a pretty hard time convincing everyone here (and anywhere) that a governmentless society would be all that you've been cracking it up to be."

Am I promising a paradise? Certainly not. So not sure what that means.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty+Jan 15 2005, 07:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame Of Liberty @ Jan 15 2005, 07:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@Jan 15 2005, 06:11 PM
Same argument, different issue.

You're going to have a pretty hard time convincing everyone here (and anywhere) that a governmentless society would be all that you've been cracking it up to be. Sure institutions make mistakes and have flaws, thats why you fix them.

If your car didn't start tomorrow morning, would you scrap it and buy a new one? Or would you get jumper-cables...

Well yeah, same argument, I am trying to be consistent with my opinions. Shame on me.

I am not too sure what you mean by "You're going to have a pretty hard time convincing everyone here (and anywhere) that a governmentless society would be all that you've been cracking it up to be."

Am I promising a paradise? Certainly not. So not sure what that means.[/b][/quote]
Exactly what are you promising?

So far all I've heard is moaning about public education, and providing pretty poor alternatives. A ) force families to send their kids to private schools or B ) force a parent to stay home from work to educate/babysit their kid.

Why is this a better option? What's your idea?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Jan 15 2005, 08:28 PM
Exactly what are you promising?

I`m not promising anything, I`m not a liberal

What am I talking about is a society freed from an element that does not belong there.

Do you have any proof that governments and their goals are legitimate and desirable?
If you do, do you have further proof that the means governments employ are legitimate?
And if you do, do you have any proof that those means actually lead to their goals?

Not one of these perequisites are satisfied when it comes to governments.

PS and opinions that "it wont work without the government" are either uninformed or ignorant.

[Agamemnon]

I`m not promising anything, I`m not a liberal

Probably a good thing, anarchy is kind of hard to guarentee I guess.

What am I talking about is a society freed from an element that does not belong there.

Whatever. Government is the end result of humanity's natural desire to organize. Every single 'civilization' on this planet has had some sort of group organization structure. Whether its hunter/gatherer or hyper-urban, governing structures existed.

Please point out an example of a society absent of organization.

Do you have any proof that governments and their goals are legitimate and desirable?
If you do, do you have further proof that the means governments employ are legitimate?
And if you do, do you have any proof that those means actually lead to their goals?

Nope. All I have is proof that when the lights go out, rioting and looting start. Again, we have an institution that is doing some things right and some things wrong. Reform is a great way to fix those that are wrong.

What replaces government? A voluntary existance, where you do what you feel like, when you feel like it? Relying on the charity of your fellow man, with no guarentees for food, clothing, shelter. If your answer to solving these needs is purely based on neighbourly handouts, I'd suggest that's a dicey 'social system'.

I'd love for you to flesh out what the govt.less society looks like, it sounds fascinating (and dangerous).

PS and opinions that "it wont work without the government" are either uninformed or ignorant.

Well, given the complete lack of evidence to support the contrary, it turns out 'uninformed or ignorant', in your words, is right.

You've pointed out no example where a lack of government existed, or is better. You're finding certain, individual things that the government is basically innefficient on distributing, and declaring that it would be better if we all just went our own ways.

Whats the deal with describing the viewpoint that's not yours as 'uninformed or ignorant'? What are your qualifications to judge this debate? You'd better be a U of C PoliSci or Philosophy prof. at the least to be tossing that one out there, otherwise it's a pretty poor debating tactic and really stupid and rude. Of course, if you think of yourself as intellectually superior, then I guess I understand why you'd say that.

"I declare that anyone believing in your point of view to be an idiot". Might not be true, but apparently we're allowed to go ahead and judge, so I'll toss that out.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Are you trying to have a discussion or are you just trying to rile me up.

Stateless societies DID EXIST. Whether you acknowledge it or not.

Why dont you do some research? Here is something to get you started:

Iceland

David Friedman: Private Creation and Enforcement of Law: A Historical Case.

Private Creation and Enforcement of Law


Ireland:

Joseph R. Peden, “Stateless Societies: Ancient Ireland,” The Libertarian Forum (April 1971)

or

Peden, “Property Rights in Celtic Irish Law,” Journal of Libertarian Studies 1(Spring 1977)

Private Property in Celtic Irish Law


2 examples. Theres plenty more for those who have interest in being informed.