A REDVAN Driving Thread (Special Edition, with links)

[REDVAN]

Ok so I came across this stuff from a friend:

Raising highway speed limit has merit

SPEEDING IS AWESOME

Eight in 10 crashes blamed on distractions

The whole thing is from driving.ca, I think a lot of people need to read some articles from there. (read: snow tires, maintenance, etc)

Basically, in the "raising speed limit" article, with the evidence the author uses, I think he makes a compelling argument. Of course, we don't have that style of road here. Maybe in Ontario it's possible? Maybe we should build our ring road like this, I hope so!

Speeding is only done by 5 million Canadians. In other news, the other 30 million Canadians are liars. Everyone speeds. People who claim they don't speed: when is the last time you went 5km/h in that Safeway parking lot? Don't fool yourself, going 20 there is more dangerous as me going 130 on deerfoot/glenmore/crowchild/etc in the summer. Why? Pedestrians, especially children.

And of course the last article: duh.

Just wanted to get the monthly "speeding is the devil" topic started. It is still my position that no one should tell me how fast I can or can not go, I will chose to go as fast as I feel is safe going. But now there is some good evidence to support how awesome it is to "legally" speed. Something to consider?

The last article also proves a point that I've been trying to make for a long time- it's not the speeders like me you need to look out for, because we aren't all that dangerous. It's the people who don't pay good enough attention who are the REAL bad drivers. They are the dangerous ones. And I'm talking about those who block the left lane without realizing what they are doing. I'm talking about people on cell phones who can't keep their car in their lane. I'm talking about old people who don't notice things. Or just anyone who is distracted and their driving is suffering.

You people who aren't paying attention are the reason I speed, my reasoning being that I want to get as far away from your idiotic driving as fast as I can.

P.S. I know this has no bearing in Calgary this week due to the snow, but I just felt like giving people some discussion fodder without the heavy emotion that people usually bring to the driving threads. Let's try to keep this clean and not too personal, and also level headed...

[Antithesis]

OK, I'll bite. You're right, many people speed, but I think a difference is that I don't get upset when people are in the left lane aren't going as quickly as I want them to. Logically, I know that speeding saves maybe 3-5 minutes on a crosstown Deerfoot trip, so when I think of the potential costs (speeding ticket, possible accident, increased gas costs) and weigh them against the benefits (arriving maybe 5 minutes sooner than I would have), it doesn't seem worth it.

I also have to admit that your argument here sounds a bit like, "my vice isn't as bad as their vices are, so I should be able to do it." Here's the thing, I believe speed limits are there for a reason. Out of all possible solutions, the best one is to reduce distractions, increase education through re-testing, AND people obeying the legal speed limits.

[BlackArcher101]

Sure sure, the number of crashes can't be blamed on speed... however, how about the severity of those crashes?

[jar_e]

[jar_e]

Redvan, I'm curious and I'm trying to ask this question as open headed as possible, but what do you think of speeding tickets?

[REDVAN]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I also have to admit that your argument here sounds a bit like, "my vice isn't as bad as their vices are, so I should be able to do it." Here's the thing, I believe speed limits are there for a reason.

I do agree, but I also firmly believe that speed limits are designed for "the average." Average weather, driver ability, vehicle ability, etc.

I would be very interested in talking to a civil engineer who designs roads and sets speed limits. I think sometimes they are just set a certain way because it seems like that is a 70 road. Not because going 80 would not be safe. Just because it looked like a 70 road.

I guess my main point with arguing FOR speeding, is that I don't think it should be so illegal. It should be more of a guideline. Most people would still follow it. But when I can go faster I like to. I am talking about safely too: when the roads are dry and clear, and they aren't jam packed. I am not all about being a total jackass. I just like getting to where I am going fastly.

[REDVAN]

Originally Posted by jar_e

Redvan, I'm curious and I'm trying to ask this question as open headed as possible, but what do you think of speeding tickets?

I have never gotten one (knock on wood).

But I would fight one to the death if I ever got it.

I also think they should not be speeding tickets, as it is in my opinion that we should be able to go as fast as we deem safe. Obviously a lot of people say "well that means when you crash and flip your car and die, that everyone has to pay for the emergency response units, and that costs taxpayers money so no you should not have the right to go as fast as you want." And I agree, people who drive dangerously should be punished. I do not think that 20-30 over is (necessarily) dangerous (some cases it is, like on residential roads where the limit is 40 or 50).

I'd be a happy guy if there was only such a thing as a "dangerous driving" ticket, and speeding was included in there. Obviously, speeding by 10 on a winter day is dangerous to yourself and others, whereas speeding by 30 on a summer day is not. Speeding by 30 in wall to wall traffic is dangerous, whereas speeding by that amount on a bare and empty road is not.

A lot of people treat speeding as a black and white issue, and it is a very grey one.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

I would be very interested in talking to a civil engineer who designs roads and sets speed limits. I think sometimes they are just set a certain way because it seems like that is a 70 road. Not because going 80 would not be safe. Just because it looked like a 70 road.

I guess my main point with arguing FOR speeding, is that I don't think it should be so illegal. It should be more of a guideline. Most people would still follow it. But when I can go faster I like to. I am talking about safely too: when the roads are dry and clear, and they aren't jam packed. I am not all about being a total jackass. I just like getting to where I am going fastly.

I'd be interested in that discussion as well; I'd side more along the lines of there being a better reason than it looks a certain way - I know what you're saying - but I think there must be a great deal of technical thought that goes into designing roads and choosing speed limits.

On a level I can understand the idea of making it more of a guideline - perhaps a floating speed limit based on road conditions where it goes up under decent conditions and down on bad conditions, but I have little faith in the average driver (like today for example) adjusting their speed appropriately in bad conditions.

Since we're starting this so open-minded, I've always been curious about the mentality of speeding, because simple arithmetic shows that it doesn't save a lot of time and I know I've seen studies that show that gas consumption increases dramatically when your vehicle is travelling much more than 100 km/h or so (I think it might be even lower). Is it worth the additional financial cost there? Like I said earlier, to me, all of the potential costs - increased maintenance, increased gas consumption, increased risk of accident or speeding ticket - are by far outweighed by any potential benefits.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

Sure sure, the number of crashes can't be blamed on speed... however, how about the severity of those crashes?

Don't get me wrong Redvan- I speed. A lot. But I think BA has a good point.

There was a link a while ago with an actor like the black one in the Allstate comercials. He is walking between two speeding cars in a "Matrix" type of camera angles. Both cars are going to crach into this semi that just pulled out. Both hit the brakes at the exact same time. (The speeding car was just about to pass the slower car at the time of braking.) What it showed was that at the point of impact, the slower car was doing something like 12 km/h when it hit, as opposed to 45 km/h. Not sure of the exact numbers; it was significant.

[REDVAN]

To be honest I actually just like to get in front of the other drivers.

When there is very little traffic, I usually set my speed at 10 over and just have my relatively leisurely drive. But if I see minor traffic, I go go go until I get in front of it all. I hate being behind other drivers, you never know what they are going to do. I'd rather avoid them than have to react if they messed up.

I guess it's just a personal driving habit. Speeding does save time when you do it smartly. For example, a drive from my house to university takes 24 minutes when following the speed limit. But by speeding "moderately" I can make it in 18-19 minutes. That matters sometimes. Of course if you hit the lights or a bad patch of traffic, then you will still arrive at 24 minutes, but then that means you weren't really speeding. Other ways to increase efficiency, which I have been doing more as I get further away from 16 years old is smart lane choices. If you pick the correct lane, you can shave time off your commute no matter how fast the normal speed is. For example, the "fast lane" isn't always the fastest. Of course this helps when you take the same route everyday for 6 years, you get to know what lane to go into at what time.

The other, financial argument, isn't something that I really consider to be honest. I find that at highway speeds, aka over 90km/h, my cars fuel economy increases so drastically that it is awesome in it's own right. Of course, when highway speeds are interrupted by city folk slamming their brakes on the freeway, and then getting back to speed, this can increase fuel consumption. I hope that in my lifetime there is automatic driving so that all cars can be automatically driven at rush hour times, that way traffic can be smooth and effective, and remove driver error. If everyone drove the same way, we could all get places a lot more quickly, no matter what.

Variable speed limits would be excellent. Unfortunately, until we get to be some super advanced society where we can afford to have variable speed limit boards put everywhere that can be centrally programmed at times if weather change or heavy traffic, we will need to put up with speed signs. But I guess for every person who treats it as a hard rule, there are already people like me who treat it as a guideline anyway. I used to date a civil engineer for years but she never explained to me the speed limit thing. Maybe she didn't know. You'd think that'd be something that is relatively easy to find out, maybe I will phone 311 or look on the internet or something.

[REDVAN]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Don't get me wrong Redvan- I speed. A lot. But I think BA has a good point.

There was a link a while ago with an actor like the black one in the Allstate comercials. He is walking between two speeding cars in a "Matrix" type of camera angles. Both cars are going to crach into this semi that just pulled out. Both hit the brakes at the exact same time. (The speeding car was just about to pass the slower car at the time of braking.) What it showed was that at the point of impact, the slower car was doing something like 12 km/h when it hit, as opposed to 45 km/h. Not sure of the exact numbers; it was significant.

I remember this video. I do agree that crashes will be more devastating at higher speeds. And that is a risk that people take every time they get in the car, no matter how fast they go. For example, someone going 100 on deerfoot will take x distance to stop, whereas someone going 120 will take y distance, and y is significantly larger than x, and they are not necessarily linearly related.

That video does make you think. But there are so many other factors with other cars and drivers that must be considered as well. Negligence is a larger factor in accidents than speeding, I think. So someone not paying attention, or fiddling with the radio might still smash into me, regardless of how fast I am going.

You can also decrease your stopping distance by having a properly maintained vehicle with better than stock parts. This includes brakes and tires in this argument. But mostly a lot of cars fall into disrepair or half-assed just to get it running. This is another thing that is just as dangerous, if not more dangerous, than speeding.

[JiriHrdina]

^sure but none of that matters in the context of whether or not speeding leads to more severe crashes. Just because one thing is dangerous, doesn't mean the other isn't.

If slower speeds means less lives lost on the road, than speed limits are smart.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

Just wanted to get the monthly "speeding is the devil" topic started. It is still my position that no one should tell me how fast I can or can not go, I will chose to go as fast as I feel is safe going. But now there is some good evidence to support how awesome it is to "legally" speed. Something to consider?

Cool, care to expalin how it is that you know more about what speeds roads are safe at than say the guys who went to school for 4 years and make a living doing so?

On a side note, I'd like to know exactly where you draw the line.
Is it okay for Micael Schumacher to drive down deerfoot at 200 mph in his Ferrari? He's one of the best drivers in the world, why should anyone be able to tell him that he can't do that.

For the record yes I speed, but I don't delude myself claiming that it's safer or that I know better than the people who built the roads.

[REDVAN]

There are a lot of people who focus on speeding as the number one danger on the road. It is something that you can't change. People will speed. The only way to deter it is to increase fines so high that people lose their cars for speeding. That won't happen. Some people like to go faster, that's never going to change unless it is made physically impossible by governors (and that is dangerous too).

I think that instead of telling everyone to slow down as the only (or main) policy for increasing safety, there needs to be more education about other things that can make roads safer. IMO they (paying attention, proper maintenance, etc) are more important than merely decreasing speed. And by that I don't mean that speeding is not dangerous. It can be. It just doesn't have to be.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

I would be very interested in talking to a civil engineer who designs roads and sets speed limits. I think sometimes they are just set a certain way because it seems like that is a 70 road. Not because going 80 would not be safe. Just because it looked like a 70 road.

I'm not really the guy to comment on this since I'm not in civil... however, I know for sure that speed limits are set by provincial law. Primary highways, 100 kph (with a few exceptions that are 110). In national parks, 90 kph (which I follow strictly because of wildlife, especially around corners). Secondary highways, 80 kph. Residential areas, 50. Rural playground/school zones, 40. City, 30. And so on.

When you consider that the average car with summer tires can handle about 0.75 Gs with all weather tires when the conditions are good, I have no doubt that the safety margins for the actual road / car combination is pretty huge. Of course, I'm also pretty sure they try to keep their safety factors under wraps so that people don't try to approach them. Speed limits are more about trying to provide adequate reaction times for the "lowest common denominator". Of course, when someone's tailgating, there's no way they have adequate stopping distances no matter what the speed limit is.

Now, on to your articles:

Unless someone wants to suggest that Americans are just naturally more law abiding than Canadians -- an argument that won't go very far -- one has to conclude that the more realistic speed limit probably plays a role in the higher level of compliance.

I don't buy it that this the result of Arizona's speed limit being realistic. Last summer I did a road trip in the states from Seattle to San Francisco, out to the Grand Canyon, down to San Diego, and up to LA. Between the two of us who were driving we logged over 3000 miles. And we noticed that Americans tend to stick to the limits everywhere (and most places it's 65 mph = 105 kph). I think it has to be a cultural thing.

And anyways, clearly that guy wasn't there when I was. I hit 100 (mph ) on those roads (well it was actually the California desert, but still). And those roads can handle it. They're super straight, wide lanes, and the curves are extremely large radius. Asphalt was hot an sticky, and you could see for miles.

I love this quote from the second article:

The poll also found that nearly 900,000 Canadian drivers admitted they had to brake or steer to avoid a collision due to excessive speeding in the past month, with a majority of these drivers having done so on multiple occasions.

I'm pretty sure everyone who drives has to brake or steer to avoid collisions, speeding or not. I can understand this making sense if they said had to swerve to avoid a collision, but every time you stop at a traffic light you're braking to avoid a collision, so whether or not you were speeding when you did so is rather irrelevant.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

I For example, a drive from my house to university takes 24 minutes when following the speed limit. But by speeding "moderately" I can make it in 18-19 minutes. That matters sometimes.

Okay to knock that much time off you've got to go over the speed limit by 30-35%.
If the speed limit is 60 that means you're doing somewhere around 78 km/hr. I wouldn't call that moderately speeding.

I'm not trying to be a dick, I just laugh when people try to justify speeding with arguements like this.

Don't try to say it's safer, don't try to justify it. Just say you're impatient and you like to go fast. That's why I speed. At least I'm honest about it.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Okay to knock that much time off you've got to go over the speed limit by 30-35%.

If the speed limit is 60 that means you're doing somewhere around 78 km/hr. I wouldn't call that moderately speeding.

Or, you're going 10% faster to hit green lights instead of red.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

There are a lot of people who focus on speeding as the number one danger on the road. It is something that you can't change. People will speed. The only way to deter it is to increase fines so high that people lose their cars for speeding. That won't happen. Some people like to go faster, that's never going to change unless it is made physically impossible by governors (and that is dangerous too).

I think that instead of telling everyone to slow down as the only (or main) policy for increasing safety, there needs to be more education about other things that can make roads safer. IMO they (paying attention, proper maintenance, etc) are more important than merely decreasing speed. And by that I don't mean that speeding is not dangerous. It can be. It just doesn't have to be.

Ahh, now we agree (mostly) on something. As much as I've already bashed you on your stance on speeding, I totally agree that stupid people yapping away on cellphones while eating and driving with their knees is much worse.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by SebC

Or, you're going 10% faster to hit green lights instead of red.

Or you're going 10% faster and you hit lights red that you'd otherwise sail through.
Let's stick to the all else being equal and not speculate on the effect of relatively random events.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Don't try to say it's safer, don't try to justify it. Just say you're impatient and you like to go fast. That's why I speed. At least I'm honest about it.

Well I don't wish to partake in this (REDVAN, 4x4) vs (rest) debate, but one thing I noticed about Canadians (and Albertans in particular) is that they take driving so personally that it probably causes more accidents then speeding. Cut someone off, going to the end of a ending lane, horns, if any of those happen, some weird passive-aggressive personality comes out for alot of Albertans that likely causes more accidents then speeding itself.

I'm sort of with REDVAN for the most part, I don't think speeding really endangers lives as much as people think. I think tired drivers, drivers on their cell phone or reading a book while driving (lol), and the above causes more accidents then speeders. But I digress.