Scientists may destroy the Earth in 2008 - Reprive, you now have until next year

[jolinar of malkshor]

They are building the large Hadron Collider in Switzerland and should be online in 2008. Both scientists that support this project and ones that don't say it is theoretically possible that a micro black hole could form and destroy the earth within 6 minutes.

As with previous particle accelerators, people both inside and outside the physics community have voiced concern that the LHC might trigger one of several theoretical disasters capable of destroying the Earth or even the entire Universe. This has raised controversy as to reason to risk the universe.
Though the standard model predicts that LHC energies are far too low to create black holes, some nonstandard theories lower the requirements, and predict that the Large Hadron Collider will create tiny black holes [8][9]. The primary cause for concern is the fact that Hawking Radiation - the only means by which these black holes could be dissipated, is entirely theoretical. In academia Hawking Radiation is considered plausible, but there remains considerable question of whether it is correct.[10]
Other disaster scenarios typically involve the following theoretical events:

• Creation of strange matter that is more stable than ordinary matter.
• Creation of magnetic monopoles that could catalyze proton decay.
• Creation of a strangelet.

CERN has pointed out that the probability of such events is extremely small. An argument for the safety of colliders such as the LHC comes from the assertion that if the Earth were in danger of any such fate, it would have happened billions of years ago from the bombardment of protons, other particles and rays the Earth and the Moon receive that are millions of times more energetic than anything that could be produced by the LHC.[11], obviously without causing catastrophes.
Quantum calculations presented in the CERN report predict that:

• Any black holes created by the LHC are not expected to be stable and will not accrete matter
• Monopoles that can catalyse the decay of matter will quickly exit the Earth.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

My question is: Is it really that important to find out how the universe was created that we need to put the solar system and every human at risk?

[photon]

Yes, yes it is.

And the "risk" is hugely overstated.

[Cube Inmate]

It's as likely that I can walk through a wall as it is that the LHC will create anything dangerous. Both are theoretically possible. Besides...I'd personally be interested to know what it feels like to be sucked into a black hole.

[Caged Great]

I for one welcome our new earth destroying black hole overlords.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by photon

Yes, yes it is.

And the "risk" is hugely overstated.

Really? All the scientists involve expect the creation of black holes most believe they will disipate before they become stable. It is pretty risky business when they really have no clue what will happen.

Everyone says it is almost impossible to win the lottery yet someone wins it every week. The possibily is there.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I for one welcome our new earth destroying black hole overlords.

Not to be rude but this line is getting so old.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Not to be rude but this line is getting so old.

Yes it is Debbie Downer.... Yes it is.

[4X4]

I'm with photon on this. Too bad about that accident back in may or this badboy would've been running next month.

[photon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Really? All the scientists involve expect the creation of black holes most believe they will disipate before they become stable. It is pretty risky business when they really have no clue what will happen.

We do have a clue, stuff like quantum theory are the most successful theories that have ever been made, nothing has gone against them yet. So we have a clue. We don't know for sure of course, but you don't know for sure if you'll wake up, if gravity will work tomorrow, or if the strong force will all of a sudden stop and the universe stop existing.

I posted about this in a thread a while back about why pure science research is still VERY necessary.

With this we're not approaching anywhere near the conditions that already exist in our universe now, let alone more extreme conditions that existed earlier in time.

Look at it a different way, if it does go wrong and destroy the earth or universe, it'll happen fast enough that you'll probably never know.

Everyone says it is almost impossible to win the lottery yet someone wins it every week. The possibily is there.

What?? No one says it's almost impossible to win the lottery, the exact odds of winning are known. If one in 16 million win, and 16 million play, chances are one will win.

[CaptainCrunch]

To The UN

From Scorpio head of Hadron Collider project Switzerland

Gentlemen stop I now have the Hadron Collider a device capable of destroying the world stop I demand that the West Coast of the United States and the Dallas Cowboys be turned over to me immediately Stop Failure to comply dramatic stop will lead to the destruction of the earth through the formation of a black hole stop you have 24 hours stop

Sincerely

Scorpio

[Caged Great]

I'm hoping that when they do this, nothing really bad happens. It's unlikely that any earth destroying black holes will be created, but they should take whatever precautions that are deemed necessary.

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Not to be rude but this line is getting so old.

I for one welcome Caged Great welcoming our new overlords, keep up the good work.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by photon

We do have a clue, stuff like quantum theory are the most successful theories that have ever been made, nothing has gone against them yet. So we have a clue. We don't know for sure of course, but you don't know for sure if you'll wake up, if gravity will work tomorrow, or if the strong force will all of a sudden stop and the universe stop existing.

First off I just want to say I am not a physicist nor have I had any academic training in physics. I do however read a lot of articles on physics. So much that my friends throw my scientific america into the camp fire when we are camping. Any how, yes we do have good theories, but that is all they are theories. And we also have several theories that go against each other not like you are suggesting that they all agree with each other.

I posted about this in a thread a while back about why pure science research is still VERY necessary.

I am not saying we shouldn't seek out knowledge, but in cases like this it whould be done very very carefully. I don't think it is being done carefully because most people are not aware of this experiment and the risks are merely being shrugged off as "well if this is going to happen it already would have happened." Way to defend a position.

With this we're not approaching anywhere near the conditions that already exist in our universe now, let alone more extreme conditions that existed earlier in time.

Yes, cosmic rays collide all the time at much greater speeds, that doesn't mean that this something wont go wrong during the experiment. Clearly it happens in the universe. There are black holes and there are neutron stars. So it can happen.

Look at it a different way, if it does go wrong and destroy the earth or universe, it'll happen fast enough that you'll probably never know.

That is reassuring.

What?? No one says it's almost impossible to win the lottery, the exact odds of winning are known. If one in 16 million win, and 16 million play, chances are one will win.

You ask people who play the lotto and they always say I will never win it. But they know that they can't win unless they try. You also talk to people who don't play the lotto and they say it will never happen to me. Same idea here. They say it could happen but the odds are it won't.

[photon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

First off I just want to say I am not a physicist nor have I had any academic training in physics. I do however read a lot of articles on physics. So much that my friends throw my scientific america into the camp fire when we are camping. Any how, yes we do have good theories, but that is all they are theories. And we also have several theories that go against each other not like you are suggesting that they all agree with each other.

I am not saying we shouldn't seek out knowledge, but in cases like this it whould be done very very carefully. I don't think it is being done carefully because most people are not aware of this experiment and the risks are merely being shrugged off as "well if this is going to happen it already would have happened." Way to defend a position.

So you admit you aren't in a position to assess the risk of this experiment but then post a thread questioning the risk of this experiment?

(BTW Scientific American is fine, but I wouldn't call it a quality source of scientific information, it's more along the lines of Popular Science than Nature. So I wouldn't use info from there as a guideline. That said I read it myself sometimes.)

Saying that it isn't being done carefully because people aren't aware of it doesn't make any sense either. I would argue probably better care is being taken because it isn't a popular (thus political) issue. As you point out, 99.99% of people aren't equipped to even understand anything about it let alone assess the risk, so they'd fall back on the "destroy earth bad, so stop doing it" position.

I have no doubt that minds far greater than ours have been all over it enough times.

Yes, cosmic rays collide all the time at much greater speeds, that doesn't mean that this something wont go wrong during the experiment. Clearly it happens in the universe. There are black holes and there are neutron stars. So it can happen.

Of course it can. Like I said it's also possible that gravity stops working or that you quantum tunnel your way outside without opening the door. But if the chances are so low that you'd have to wait far past the heat death of the universe for it to happen, how much do you let that risk influence you?

That is reassuring.

It's easier to address irrational fears with irrational responses.

You ask people who play the lotto and they always say I will never win it. But they know that they can't win unless they try. You also talk to people who don't play the lotto and they say it will never happen to me. Same idea here. They say it could happen but the odds are it won't.

That doesn't say anything about the risks of this experiment however. Are you saying that even though the risks are vanishingly small, we shouldn't throw the dice simply because the possibility of something bad happening exists?

With that reasoning, nothing would ever have been invented for fear of burning the planet down (fire), punching a hole in the earth's crust (nuclear explosions) or killing us all with a new plague (any kind of medical research).

[Dan02]

well atleast it will be over pretty fast if they screw up

you know what else could happen, i could get a random mutation and become radioactive and be able to detonate myself, hey in theory its possible right?

[icarus]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

As with previous particle accelerators, people both inside and outside the physics community have voiced concern that the LHC might trigger one of several theoretical disasters capable of destroying the Earth or even the entire Universe. This has raised controversy as to reason to risk the universe.

Well it would suck to die, but if the human race could destroy the entire universe I guess it would be worth it. How you like them apples, Alpha Centuari?!

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by Dan02

well atleast it will be over pretty fast if they screw up

you know what else could happen, i could get a random mutation and become radioactive and be able to detonate myself, hey in theory its possible right?

Maybe we will all get super powers and we can play out our favorite comics in real life! Or maybe they will open a huge worm hole, and connect to the stargate network, and Goa'uld will enslave us all..

I for one, can't wait for this experiment to happen. They have some the greatest minds working on this thing. I am sure they have tried to think of every single possibility, probability, outcome, etc. You take risks crossing the street every day. There is a chance that you will get hit by a car, but if you take precautions, you can minimize that risk or probability to virtually zero.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by photon

So you admit you aren't in a position to assess the risk of this experiment but then post a thread questioning the risk of this experiment?

Because I can't assess the risk means I can't question it? Come on now.

(BTW Scientific American is fine, but I wouldn't call it a quality source of scientific information, it's more along the lines of Popular Science than Nature. So I wouldn't use info from there as a guideline. That said I read it myself sometimes.)

Yes and no. Scientific American it is not like Poplular Science. Many qualified and verified studies are posted in it (always as brief summaries however). And that is not the only source of information I use.

Saying that it isn't being done carefully because people aren't aware of it doesn't make any sense either. I would argue probably better care is being taken because it isn't a popular (thus political) issue. As you point out, 99.99% of people aren't equipped to even understand anything about it let alone assess the risk, so they'd fall back on the "destroy earth bad, so stop doing it" position.

I would disagree with this. Things are usually covered better when it is at the fore front of peoples life. To say it is being better looked at because the populace doesn't know about it is backward in my opinion. At least when people are aware of something there is more debate about it.

I have no doubt that minds far greater than ours have been all over it enough times.

Agreed, and there are scientists that do not agree that we should be charging ahead so fast with this.

Of course it can. Like I said it's also possible that gravity stops working or that you quantum tunnel your way outside without opening the door. But if the chances are so low that you'd have to wait far past the heat death of the universe for it to happen, how much do you let that risk influence you?

You can't make this statement because we don't know. It could happen on the first try. No waiting required.

It's easier to address irrational fears with irrational responses.

Irrational fear? Ok.

That doesn't say anything about the risks of this experiment however. Are you saying that even though the risks are vanishingly small, we shouldn't throw the dice simply because the possibility of something bad happening exists?

That is the problem....it is throwing the dice. All I am saying is maybe we should be sure that it wont happen.

With that reasoning, nothing would ever have been invented for fear of burning the planet down (fire), punching a hole in the earth's crust (nuclear explosions) or killing us all with a new plague (any kind of medical research).

Come on now. No scientist predicted the world would be destroyed with one nuclear explosion. What we are dealing with now is much more complex and dangerous than playing with fire. As for a new plague, yes, it may kill all humans, but a plague could not destroy the solar system.

[Phaneuf3]

so what you're saying is.... if the experiment goes right we could potentially make massive scientific discoveries and if it goes wrong the oilers will never win another hockey game?

win/win in my books. power that baby up.

[REDVAN]

Anything that has the chance of destroying the entire universe shouldn't be tried. Period.