Tot Dies After Wait for EMS

[fredr123]

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...593f16&k=16722

A Calgary family is wondering if a delay in reaching dispatchers after they called 911 using an Internet phone service may have played a role in the death of their 18-month-old boy.
...
The EMS investigation centres on why the voice over Internet Protocol company's call centre did not appear to transfer the emergency phone call to Calgary's 911 dispatch.
Information is still pretty sketchy at this point. Sounds like the family tried to call 911 but was disconnected or something from their VOIP call centre. Calgary EMS says they didn't get the call right away until a neighbour phoned again. The 18 month old boy, who had fought health problems all his life, passed away after finally being rushed to the Alberta Children's Hospital.

[Montana Moe]

This is unfortunate, and certainly not the first time this has happened. I am also curious how the reverse 911 system would work in a situation like this.

I would hate to not be notified of an impending natural disaster, chemical spill, etc. in my neighborhood just because I wanted to save a buck. A quick search of the Vonage website says nothing of reverse 911.

[Ford Prefect]

In fairness to EMS, shouldn't the thread title be something like "Tot Dies After VOIP Drops 911 Call"? It wasn't EMS's fault that there was a delayed response.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

In fairness to EMS, shouldn't the thread title be something like "Tot Dies After VOIP Drops 911 Call"? It wasn't EMS's fault that there was a delayed response.

The thread title was "ripped from the headlines" of the Calgary Herald. From what I've read, it doesn't seem entirely clear what happened for certain. Your suggested headline puts blame on VOIP that may not be warranted. Was it a problem common to all VOIP providers or just theres? Besides, no one is saying that it was Calgary EMS's fault, but the fact is the delayed response could have been a factor in the child's death.

[MaDMaN_26]

Well, when I signed up for Skype it was VERY clear that it would not call 911 and that it should not be a replacement for a normal phone because of that - just used for cheap LD. I had already gotten rid of my landline though and was just using my Cell phone but the warnings about VOIP were very clear.

I also don’t have any dependants, especially not a "18 month old boy, who had fought health problems all his life".

If I did have a infant son that was always having health issues, I'd probably not only have a land line but a medic alert system that was hotlined to 911 and an Alarm system that was monitored and could also call for help. Maybe that’s overkill and these people could not afford that, but I don't care how broke you are, you find a way to pay for basic phone service when your sons life is on the line.

This sounds to me like a Stupid people/parents problem and nothing to do with EMS or VOIP. Sadly it will probably result in legislation restricting VOIP in someway to protect people from their own idiocy.

[GoFlambe]

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

This sounds to me like a Stupid people/parents problem and nothing to do with EMS or VOIP. Sadly it will probably result in legislation restricting VOIP in someway to protect people from their own idiocy.

According to Comwave's FAQ, 911 is handled by a third party who then dispatches the authorities.

In other words, 911 calls you make on their network aren't sent directly to your municipalities call centre, if I'm interpreting it correctly. So you don't talk directly to your city's 911 service.

Which is a danger of some VoIP services; even if they provide 911 services, it might work the way you think.

So I don't think it's solely a case of "Stupid people" since they might not have known exactly how the 911 service with their provider worked. They might have saw 911 support and thought it worked like normal 911 (and some VoIP providers do work that way, I think), but honestly, after reading that FAQ entry, one might make assumptions that everything should work as advertised.

Like the article said, the third party did *not* route the call to the municipality's call centre or have EMS dispatched, for whatever reason and their FAQ clearly states that that is the protocol that should be followed in that situation.

[ricosuave]

well said madman. same with shaw, they made it very clear that there was a risk with 911 by using that and to have a backup of some sort...

[MelBridgeman]

That's really too bad, but as said before, it is made perfectly clear that VOIP services may not gurantee you access to 911, so instead of trying to pass blame...the parents or aunt need to do some soul searching...it is your responsibility to make sure that you have reliable access to ermergency officials...a land line, a cellphone, especially considering your child was already been battling medical issues it's entire life.

[MaDMaN_26]

Originally Posted by GoFlambe

So I don't think it's solely a case of "Stupid people" since they might not have known exactly how the 911 service with their provider worked. They might have saw 911 support and thought it worked like normal 911 (and some VoIP providers do work that way, I think), but honestly, after reading that FAQ entry, one might make assumptions that everything should work as advertised.

Sorry but I think that exemplifies the stupidity here... we are not talking about a situation where someone who believed they'd never need 911, as most people hope they won't day to day, and so took the perceived small risk and switched to a VOIP phone system. We are talking about parents that had a son with a history of health problems going with a 3rd party to route their 911 calls. These are people that knew that the reality of their situation was they would very likely need 911 some day, maybe on many different days.

That’s got dumbass written all over it. All I personally would need to see was that my 911 service would not work the same, how ever that was different if my child’s LIFE was at stake, I think I'd opt out of the early adopters program and wait for the VOIP wrinkles to get ironed out and stay with a tried and true method of getting help immediately when I need it.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

Sorry but I think that exemplifies the stupidity here... we are not talking about a situation where someone who believed they'd never need 911, as most people hope they won't day to day, and so took the perceived small risk and switched to a VOIP phone system. We are talking about parents that had a son with a history of health problems going with a 3rd party to route their 911 calls. These are people that knew that the reality of their situation was they would very likely need 911 some day, maybe on many different days.

Sorry but that’s got dumbass written all over it. All I personally would need to see was that my 911 service would not work the same, how ever that was different if my child’s LIFE was at stake, I think I'd opt out of the early adopters program and wait for the VOIP wrinkles to get ironed out and stay with a tried and true method of getting help immediately when I need it.

I agree with you. It's not like they had to choose VOIP. To knowingly put your baby at unneccessary risk just to save a few bucks a month, I guess the parents will have to ask themselves now was it really worth it.

[psicodude]

I don't mean to sound like a dick as I have an 11 month old myself....but saving that $20 a month doesn't seem like such a great idea now, does it?

I think trying to place blame is part of the grieving process, but honestly the parents have to take a long, hard look in the mirror here.

[GirlySports]

Can't blame anyone. When it's time to go it's time to go. We're all on one long-ass waiting list.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

well said madman. same with shaw, they made it very clear that there was a risk with 911 by using that and to have a backup of some sort...

Not sure if that's when they first brought out Digital phone, but Shaw offers the same kind of 911 service as Telus or any other POTS.

Enhanced 911
If you need to make an emergency 911 call, your name and address are automatically displayed directly to the emergency operator in your municipal emergency services response dispatch centre.

They even specify they are different from the VoIP providers:
It’s also important to realize that Internet telephony services do not provide the same level of 911 service that is available with traditional phone service or Shaw Digital Phone. With Internet telephony, your 911 call is routed to an emergency response centre which may be in a different city or province. With enhanced 911 service, available with Shaw Digital Phone, your call is not only routed to the nearest emergency response centre, but your callback number and address are also automatically provided to the emergency dispatcher. Even if you are unable to speak, they can still dispatch emergency personnel to your location. Vonage does not provide enhanced 911 service.

[ricosuave]

^ i think that has changed to this since it first came out. good to know, though!

[jar_e]

As been said, its always good to know what your phone service offers and always make sure your aware of the risks you may be taking. As someone who works in the industry I can't stress this enough.

[BlackArcher101]

Anyone know if it's possible to test your 911 feature by actually calling 911 and ensuring your info is displayed correctly?

[Gozer]

FYI, I believe that any cell phone will have 911 service, even if you don't have a plan.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Gozer

FYI, I believe that any cell phone will have 911 service, even if you don't have a plan.

That's absolutely correct. Whether or not your phone is activated, you can call 611 and 911 from it. So please, if you have old phones laying around, do not give them to your children with battery power as they will call someone for you.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

Anyone know if it's possible to test your 911 feature by actually calling 911 and ensuring your info is displayed correctly?

I think a person would be fined if they did that.

[Crispy's Critter]

I use Vonage, and it does say very clearly as you're signing up that 911 would be handled differently. As well I have an Edmonton phone number, but live actually almost 5 hours north of edmonton, so I figured that would cause even more problems in the event of an emergency. Because of this I have the local numbers for the police, ambulance, and fire department on speed dial programmed into my phones. I think this should be stated on the websites as an alternative as well (if not possible, at least a list of those numbers beside every phone), because a lot of people either don't think of doing this, or don't realize that their 911 service will be different.

As far as this goes, very tragic, and hopefully it may spur these voip companies to look into other options for handling 911. Not sure what can be done, but I'm sure their tech's could come up with something.