God Hates Amputees

[Thor]

My father still hasn't received a miracle, and the amputees of the world would like an answer from god, why do you hate the amputees so much?

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Cancer, cured: miracle
Aids, cured: miracle
Restless Leg Syndrome, cured: miracle

but yet:
Missing a limb? NO MIRACLE FOR YOU

So obviously my intent with this post is clear, but how do people who believe in Miracles accept that there is never a amputee with a miracle, its always someone that could have made a recovery without the hand of god.

[scottie]

Oh it happens alright. There's a guy that went to the Lakeland, Florida outpouring the other week who has started to grow back his amputated legs (verified by his docs). I've spoken directly with a guy who did missionary work in India and watched as someones arm, amputated at the elbow, grew back in front of his eyes (among several other similar miracles).

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Thor

My father still hasn't received a miracle, and the amputees of the world would like an answer from god, why do you hate the amputees so much?

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Cancer, cured: miracle
Aids, cured: miracle
Restless Leg Syndrome, cured: miracle

but yet:
Missing a limb? NO MIRACLE FOR YOU

So obviously my intent with this post is clear, but how do people who believe in Miracles accept that there is never a amputee with a miracle, its always someone that could have made a recovery without the hand of god.

Don't tell Lee Spievack that, his finger grew back..with some magical help

[photon]

I've heard about this Florida outpouring and have asked for and looked for any kind of verifications of the miracles, but have yet to see anything approaching real evidence.

That pig bladder finger regrowing guy got national news attention, how much more should there be for a full limb growing back? Or someone really dead being raised from the dead?

The best that someone could do with someone being "raised from the dead", which meant that they had just had some kind of problem, the medical people were trying to revive them, it wasn't working, they prayed, and then they managed to revive them.. which could be a miracle but isn't clearly one.

How hard would a news story with before and after pictures be?

I've got a slightly different question on the topic.. God is supposed to be no respecter of persons, and treat everyone equally (many scriptures on this). Yet some people get the advantage of a miracle to demonstrate God to them, while others seek their whole lives and get nothing, possibly ending up in hell because of that.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by scottie

Oh it happens alright. There's a guy that went to the Lakeland, Florida outpouring the other week who has started to grow back his amputated legs (verified by his docs). I've spoken directly with a guy who did missionary work in India and watched as someones arm, amputated at the elbow, grew back in front of his eyes (among several other similar miracles).

Whoa ... that sounds like some good acid!!

[stuck_in_chuk]

Pretty good reading, and the author asks some valid questions and comes up with some rational conclusions.

It reminds me of a co-worker who said that all children are gifts from God. Really? Does your average teenage mother who gets knocked up consider it a gift? How about a rape victim? Or that woman in Austria who was locked in her basement for 24 years? God was really generous to her.

Thanks for posting the link - could always use some off-season reading.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by photon

I've heard about this Florida outpouring and have asked for and looked for any kind of verifications of the miracles, but have yet to see anything approaching real evidence.

That pig bladder finger regrowing guy got national news attention, how much more should there be for a full limb growing back? Or someone really dead being raised from the dead?

The best that someone could do with someone being "raised from the dead", which meant that they had just had some kind of problem, the medical people were trying to revive them, it wasn't working, they prayed, and then they managed to revive them.. which could be a miracle but isn't clearly one.

How hard would a news story with before and after pictures be?

I've got a slightly different question on the topic.. God is supposed to be no respecter of persons, and treat everyone equally (many scriptures on this). Yet some people get the advantage of a miracle to demonstrate God to them, while others seek their whole lives and get nothing, possibly ending up in hell because of that.

I think it's pretty clear in the Bible that god has favorites and is clearly not equal opportunity

[Weiser Wonder]

A lot of Christians are not troubled by this question and do not think God actually heals through prayer.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by photon

I've got a slightly different question on the topic.. God is supposed to be no respecter of persons, and treat everyone equally (many scriptures on this). Yet some people get the advantage of a miracle to demonstrate God to them, while others seek their whole lives and get nothing, possibly ending up in hell because of that.

I have yet to meet a Christian who is troubled by this. I was also once a member of organised religion and never had a problem with that either. I always felt it was wrong to expect or demand miracles.

[Traditional_Ale]

So theres this guy chillin' on the beach that happens to be a quadruple amputee. No arms, and no legs. As he is relaxing under his umbrella sucking back beer through a straw, three incredibly gorgeous women come walking by.

Upon sight of the man, the girls agree that he is the cutest man they have ever seen and approach. One of the girls asks the man if she could give him a hug, to which he replies excitedly "Ive never had a hug!" And so she hugs him.

One of the other girls asks if he's been kissed before, and he shakes his head no. So she kisses him.

The last girl decides to step over and then stand right over the man! Looking right down into his eyes she asks him "Hey, have you ever been f***ed?"

He shakes his head vigorously no.

So the girl taps her watch and says "Wait half an hour, the tide is coming in."

[photon]

Originally Posted by Dion

I have yet to meet a Christian who is troubled by this. I was also once a member of organised religion and never had a problem with that either. I always felt it was wrong to expect or demand miracles.

They're out there though, here's an entire doctrine based around the question of why there are no apparent miracles today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessationism

If you really dig, lots of Christians do have a problem with the whole issue, though I guess problem isn't the right word.. it's an unresolvable issue and they simply relegate it to the status of mystery to avoid cognitive dissonance.

I know it was something I thought about on and off for a very long time.

When everyone around you is professing to have vision, see angels, basically daily miracles which are evidence of God for them in their lives, and you see nothing at all that hold up to scrutiny, you start to doubt the whole thing.. And once one finds out how susceptible and malleable the human mind is it's easy to see how those around you can be having the experiences they have.

So for the individual that has sought God and some sign for their entire lives and resulted in nothing, that means the God that they think exists doesn't. Not saying no God exists, just the God that would give a sign to the individual to help them with their faith doesn't exist... that the real God is the God of the cessationists.. or the God of the Calvinists and the individual just happens not to be one of the elect and is damned no matter what they do. Or that God isn't the God that's no respecter of persons and has decided for whatever reason that the individual doesn't get the same help others do, too bad, so sad, their soul isn't worth saving I guess.

EDIT: And it's not really about expecting or demanding a miracle, it's about being treated the same as all the other Christians. It's about having some indication that one particular religion is the right one and the rest are the wrong ones. Miracles were a huge part of winning souls in the early church weren't they?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

So theres this guy chillin' on the beach that happens to be a quadruple amputee. No arms, and no legs. As he is relaxing under his umbrella sucking back beer through a straw, three incredibly gorgeous women come walking by.

Upon sight of the man, the girls agree that he is the cutest man they have ever seen and approach. One of the girls asks the man if she could give him a hug, to which he replies excitedly "Ive never had a hug!" And so she hugs him.

One of the other girls asks if he's been kissed before, and he shakes his head no. So she kisses him.

The last girl decides to step over and then stand right over the man! Looking right down into his eyes she asks him "Hey, have you ever been f***ed?"

He shakes his head vigorously no.

So the girl taps her watch and says "Wait half an hour, the tide is coming in."

And then his name was Bob.

[scottie]

Originally Posted by stuck_in_chuk

It reminds me of a co-worker who said that all children are gifts from God. Really? Does your average teenage mother who gets knocked up consider it a gift? How about a rape victim? Or that woman in Austria who was locked in her basement for 24 years?

Perhaps look at it from the child's perspective ...

[Dion]

Originally Posted by photon

EDIT: And it's not really about expecting or demanding a miracle, it's about being treated the same as all the other Christians. It's about having some indication that one particular religion is the right one and the rest are the wrong ones. Miracles were a huge part of winning souls in the early church weren't they?

The problem with that is people don't take personal responsibility for thier lives and actions. Like, how could one possibly be treated equal when there's endless choices we can make each day. They forget free will has a part in the equation.

They hear that someone was cured of cancer so the person also dealing with cancer expects the same treatment. The chap with lung cancer fails to recognise that his smoking addiction played a part in his illness. It's as if they feel they can abuse thier bodies and God will be there to heal it.

It's about having some indication that one particular religion is the right one and the rest are the wrong ones. Miracles were a huge part of winning souls in the early church weren't they?

That part was part of the reason i left organised religion. My premise was always who cares what other people believe. If it brings purpose and meaning to their lives, who am i to argue. Frankly there was too much condemnation and not enough forgiveness going on.

Funny thing is i remeber telling someone years ago that if ours was wrong Hell wouldn't be so bad as we would be too busy shaking hands with friends to know where we are

[stuck_in_chuk]

Originally Posted by scottie

Perhaps look at it from the child's perspective ...

In the case of the woman in Austria, the child's perspective would be living in a small basement apartment, never seeing the light of day, with several siblings while grandpa/father comes down to rape your mother/half-sister. I'm not sure God did anyone any favours in that situation. Maybe now that they are 'freed' they will have productive and happy lives, but I don't think anyone is counting on that to happen.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

And then his name was Bob.

Oooooh, well played!

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by photon

EDIT: And it's not really about expecting or demanding a miracle, it's about being treated the same as all the other Christians. It's about having some indication that one particular religion is the right one and the rest are the wrong ones. Miracles were a huge part of winning souls in the early church weren't they?

Every religion needs to find a balance between allowing the possibility of miracles, vs. managing the reality of miracles being extremely rare if not nonexistant. Different religions take different approaches. Promise a lot of miracles or demonstrate them through spectacle, and you probably get a lot of people signing up, but these same people quietly withdraw when their own miracle is slow to happen. Give more realistic expectations, and people ask themselves what the point of being in a religion without them. A successful religion often starts with the promises of miracles (in the case of Christianity, heavy on guys like Moses and Christ), and then switches to a 'he helps those who help themselves' mode (heavy on Job). Some religions stay in the earlier, miracle-based version permanently, attracting converts with spectacle, who then leave quietly when they realize they were bamboozled. While I do not and would not participate in any organized religion, I certainly have more respect for those who emphasize hard work and deep introspection over any cheap rewards.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Dion

The problem with that is people don't take personal responsibility for thier lives and actions. Like, how could one possibly be treated equal when there's endless choices we can make each day. They forget free will has a part in the equation.

They hear that someone was cured of cancer so the person also dealing with cancer expects the same treatment. The chap with lung cancer fails to recognise that his smoking addiction played a part in his illness. It's as if they feel they can abuse thier bodies and God will be there to heal it.

Despite free will and infinite varying situations it's a valid question though I think. Lots of people who abused their bodies and such claim to be healed. And some abuse may be a result of addiction, which mitigates the abuse and poses the question as to why didn't God help them with abuse... sure some don't want help, but there are lots who do want help and don't get it.

Ultimately it's more about revelation for the purposes of salvation than healing a specific thing, one makes live a bit easier, the other is the play for the soul. A miracle of the curing cancer level isn't necessary.. most people would be satisfied with the "miracle" of knowing God's talking to them. I don't have any problem knowing beyond a reasonable doubt I'm talking to my wife on the phone, God should at the very least be capable of that.

I think the reasonable conclusion is that there are no miracles; God (if they do exist) simply doesn't intervene in people's lives in that way.

The whole problem of evil (theodacy) has no satisfactory answer. At best it's left a mystery and shoved into the mental corner to be ignored, at worst it's a source of people turning to agnosticism and/or atheism.

That part was part of the reason i left organised religion. My premise was always who cares what other people believe. If it brings purpose and meaning to their lives, who am i to argue. Frankly there was too much condemnation and not enough forgiveness going on.

Heh, yeah that does go against the grain of most current religions.. Christianity especially as it was really the first one where what you believe determines your status in an afterlife.

[photon]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Every religion needs to find a balance between allowing the possibility of miracles, vs. managing the reality of miracles being extremely rare if not nonexistant. Different religions take different approaches. Promise a lot of miracles or demonstrate them through spectacle, and you probably get a lot of people signing up, but these same people quietly withdraw when their own miracle is slow to happen. Give more realistic expectations, and people ask themselves what the point of being in a religion without them. A successful religion often starts with the promises of miracles (in the case of Christianity, heavy on guys like Moses and Christ), and then switches to a 'he helps those who help themselves' mode (heavy on Job). Some religions stay in the earlier, miracle-based version permanently, attracting converts with spectacle, who then leave quietly when they realize they were bamboozled. While I do not and would not participate in any organized religion, I certainly have more respect for those who emphasize hard work and deep introspection over any cheap rewards.

Interesting post, I think I agree. I know most of the churches I've gone to while they taught the hard work and introspection they definitely stressed the miracles and prosperity.

Which made for interesting social interactions... Everyone trying to show how full of faith they were by putting on a good front of experiencing miracles and appearing prosperous, while the realities of life and the bad things that happened swung between being kept as secret as possible until it couldn't be kept anymore and then rushed out into the open as a huge prayer issue that had to be addressed by the church.

Everyone bragging about the latest miracle in their lives while wondering if everyone else is faking it like they are.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by photon

They're out there though, here's an entire doctrine based around the question of why there are no apparent miracles today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessationism

If you really dig, lots of Christians do have a problem with the whole issue, though I guess problem isn't the right word.. it's an unresolvable issue and they simply relegate it to the status of mystery to avoid cognitive dissonance.

I know it was something I thought about on and off for a very long time.

When everyone around you is professing to have vision, see angels, basically daily miracles which are evidence of God for them in their lives, and you see nothing at all that hold up to scrutiny, you start to doubt the whole thing.. And once one finds out how susceptible and malleable the human mind is it's easy to see how those around you can be having the experiences they have.

So for the individual that has sought God and some sign for their entire lives and resulted in nothing, that means the God that they think exists doesn't. Not saying no God exists, just the God that would give a sign to the individual to help them with their faith doesn't exist... that the real God is the God of the cessationists.. or the God of the Calvinists and the individual just happens not to be one of the elect and is damned no matter what they do. Or that God isn't the God that's no respecter of persons and has decided for whatever reason that the individual doesn't get the same help others do, too bad, so sad, their soul isn't worth saving I guess.

EDIT: And it's not really about expecting or demanding a miracle, it's about being treated the same as all the other Christians. It's about having some indication that one particular religion is the right one and the rest are the wrong ones. Miracles were a huge part of winning souls in the early church weren't they?

The bible is up for extensive interpretation. To take the bible literally is absolutely ridiculous. Miracles as put in the bible might not be as literal as they see. Jesus is said to "saved" a leper, right? He touched a leper, which every other respected member of society was not willing to do. He cured him by showing that he was worthy of touch, not that he was literally "cured". Just one example.