Canada Loses Another Soccer Star

[Thunderball]

This time its 20-year old Jonathan de Guzman, younger and much more talented brother of Canadian international Julian de Guzman, opting to be a reserve for Holland rather than a starter and lynchpin for Canada.

http://www.goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=569047

Pretty pathetic and disgusting state of affairs when the CSA can't even convince an active player's brother to play. Can't say I blame him though, until Canada gets their act together soccer wise, we're doomed to this.

[ricoFlame]

oh man, that's tough. not even of dutch decent. at least he was largely developed there i guess. but still tough pill for the CSA to swallow. i suppose that he left Canada long ago.

[4X4]

We steal europe's hockey players, they steal our footballers. Fair trade.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by 4X4

We steal europe's hockey players, they steal our footballers. Fair trade.

Yes, but their hockey players don't play for Canada internationally (save the odd Nedved case) and sometimes them gaining the NHL edge is to our detriment internationally.

Its more they educate and steal our footballers (cause we're incompetent), we educate their hockey players. Still a fair trade?

[ricoFlame]

Originally Posted by 4X4

We steal europe's hockey players, they steal our footballers. Fair trade.

but, their hockey players still play for their country internationally.

EDIT: beat me to it.

[4X4]

Isn't it a FIFA rule that you have to play for the country you play in? Them's the breaks... Once CSA gets their act together, then we can be choked that homegrown talent leaves. Which I guess was your original point. I just don't see it happening in our lifetime.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Isn't it a FIFA rule that you have to play for the country you play in? Them's the breaks... Once CSA gets their act together, then we can be choked that homegrown talent leaves. Which I guess was your original point. I just don't see it happening in our lifetime.

Nope... you can play in any country you wish as a club player. For example, Didier Drogba is an Ivory Coast International that plays in England for Chelsea. Many countries rely on their top end talent getting picked up in a big Euro league to progress and take that improvement back to their NT.

Internationally, you have to play for either your birth country, parental country of ancestry, or, in de Guzman's case, a country where you've lived and worked for over 2.5 years and applied for citizenship. Its actually a bigger slap in the face than Hargreaves... at least he had English relatives... this guy is Jamaican/Filipino.

[Slava]

I always wondered what he would decide. I was hoping that he would want to play with his brother..but I suppose you have to do whats best for your career at some level.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Internationally, you have to play for either your birth country, parental country of ancestry, or, in de Guzman's case, a country where you've lived and worked for over 2.5 years and applied for citizenship. Its actually a bigger slap in the face than Hargreaves... at least he had English relatives... this guy is Jamaican/Filipino.

Ahhh. I see what your beef is now... I thought that it was a given.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Yes, but their hockey players don't play for Canada internationally (save the odd Nedved case) and sometimes them gaining the NHL edge is to our detriment internationally.

Its more they educate and steal our footballers (cause we're incompetent), we educate their hockey players. Still a fair trade?

Thats pretty much it there. They bring some relatively unheard of Canadian in, they train him in their Academies with world class coaches and facilities, they expect a return.

Our players get crap for facilities all over the country, and thats if they can even get into them.

If the CSA werent staggeringly incompetent we wouldnt have this problem.

At the end of the day, its easy for a competitive player to say that they would prefer excellent training in the Netherlands and a chance to play on a team that contends at a world class level than the Canadian alternative which consists of:

Being largely ignored, poorly trained, underpaid and playing on the International Soccer Equivalent of the Edmonton Oilers.

Thats not a hard decision.

[Johnny 99]

This should come as no surprise to anyone. He has turned down the CSA's advances for the past five years, stating that if he were to be picked for Holland, he'd play for them. You can't blame him really, any decent Canuck would do the same. Hargreaves, for example. He can play at a much higher level and have an actual chance of international success, rather than having a ten hour coach flight each way every time he comes to play for a terrible Canada team against meaningless football minnows like Martinique and Costa Rica.

[ricoFlame]

Originally Posted by Johnny 99

This should come as no surprise to anyone. He has turned down the CSA's advances for the past five years, stating that if he were to be picked for Holland, he'd play for them. You can't blame him really, any decent Canuck would do the same. Hargreaves, for example. He can play at a much higher level and have an actual chance of international success, rather than having a ten hour coach flight each way every time he comes to play for a terrible Canada team against meaningless football minnows like Martinique and Costa Rica.

i look at it from a different side. i just can't understand how someone would want to represent a nation that they are not from. he's not dutch.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Johnny 99

This should come as no surprise to anyone. He has turned down the CSA's advances for the past five years, stating that if he were to be picked for Holland, he'd play for them. You can't blame him really, any decent Canuck would do the same. Hargreaves, for example. He can play at a much higher level and have an actual chance of international success, rather than having a ten hour coach flight each way every time he comes to play for a terrible Canada team against meaningless football minnows like Martinique and Costa Rica.

Hargreaves was different... the CSA treated him like crap and only came calling when Bayern made him a decent player. He went to a birth country at least... the guy is English/Welsh in ancestry... its understandable.

De Guzman on the other hand had the CSA kissing his ass the whole way (despite the CSA being completely clueless and incompetent). He went to a country he had absolutely no connection to. The only other player I know of doing this is Amauri... however, he's getting Italian citizenship because he knows he'll never crack Brazil and be a starter. He has a chance with Italy, since aside from Gilardino, Quagliarella and Iaquinta, all their other decent strikers are over 30.

Its not surprising at all... its pathetic. The CSA should have locked him down years ago, offered him enticements and generally made the Canadian NT worthy of a player of his potential. Instead, they ran the only respectable coach they ever had (Osieck) out of town because he wanted the CSA to invest some money so he could actually build from the Gold Cup win, and keep players interested in playing for them. They then suffered from bad coach after bad coach, and generally lagged behind, and failed to address the abhorrent player development program. They then suffered horribly at the U20 level, being not only the only host nation to ever have zero points, but the only host country to score zero goals in what was considered the easiest group of the tournament.

[Johnny 99]

What I mean to say is that I don't blame him at all. Putting on a national shirt should be something of pride, but it is tough for a guy like De Guzman to allow himself into the joke setup that is the Canadian team, especially when being offered a spot on one of the world's top ten countries. It would be a bit akin to a guy like Dion Phaneuf being born in Kazakhstan and moving to Canada when fourteen or fifteen to develop his hockey skills. At age twenty, having lived in Canada for five years, and having the opportunity to represent the Canadian national team as well, would anyone blame him for not representing a poor country on the other side of the world? The CSA are a total joke; I once heard six foot plus tall Craig Forrest complaining of being made to fly coach from London to Vancouver for a Canadian World Cup qualifier in Victoria.

There are many reasons that Canada will not develop into any kind of serious footballing nation in the next thirty years, mainly, the climate here and the complete lack of quality coaching at the grassroots level. I play amateur soccer here in Calgary and the level of play, even at the top amateur levels is absolutly appalling. Kids here are never taught the basics of passing and team defense, much like kids in Kazakhstan probably aren't taught basic hockey skills such as shot blocking and the neutral zone trap.

It is certainly frustrating for us as Canadian football fans, but there is not much we can do except wait and pray that there is a superstar-in-the-waiting who is in his early teens who will play from a young age for a big club like Milan or Barcelona, and furthermore be PROUD to represent his country internationally. This could really get the ball rolling on establishing a solid development system that could make Canada competitive in a very easy CONCACAF group.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

De Guzman on the other hand had the CSA kissing his ass the whole way (despite the CSA being completely clueless and incompetent). He went to a country he had absolutely no connection to. The only other player I know of doing this is Amauri... however, he's getting Italian citizenship because he knows he'll never crack Brazil and be a starter. He has a chance with Italy, since aside from Gilardino, Quagliarella and Iaquinta, all their other decent strikers are over 30.

Actually, Brazilians do it all the time.

Alex in Japan, and most famously, Deco for Portugal. There are quite a few more, and from various countries.

Both Brazilian born, but if they want to play international soccer then they gotta find someplace else.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Locke

Actually, Brazilians do it all the time.

Alex in Japan, and most famously, Deco for Portugal. There are quite a few more, and from various countries.

Both Brazilian born, but if they want to play international soccer then they gotta find someplace else.

I forgot about Alex, he would definitely qualify as a De Guzman/Amauri type... as for Deco... I never realized he was because so many Brazillians have Portugese ancestors.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Johnny 99

What I mean to say is that I don't blame him at all. Putting on a national shirt should be something of pride, but it is tough for a guy like De Guzman to allow himself into the joke setup that is the Canadian team, especially when being offered a spot on one of the world's top ten countries. It would be a bit akin to a guy like Dion Phaneuf being born in Kazakhstan and moving to Canada when fourteen or fifteen to develop his hockey skills. At age twenty, having lived in Canada for five years, and having the opportunity to represent the Canadian national team as well, would anyone blame him for not representing a poor country on the other side of the world? The CSA are a total joke; I once heard six foot plus tall Craig Forrest complaining of being made to fly coach from London to Vancouver for a Canadian World Cup qualifier in Victoria.

There are many reasons that Canada will not develop into any kind of serious footballing nation in the next thirty years, mainly, the climate here and the complete lack of quality coaching at the grassroots level. I play amateur soccer here in Calgary and the level of play, even at the top amateur levels is absolutly appalling. Kids here are never taught the basics of passing and team defense, much like kids in Kazakhstan probably aren't taught basic hockey skills such as shot blocking and the neutral zone trap.

It is certainly frustrating for us as Canadian football fans, but there is not much we can do except wait and pray that there is a superstar-in-the-waiting who is in his early teens who will play from a young age for a big club like Milan or Barcelona, and furthermore be PROUD to represent his country internationally. This could really get the ball rolling on establishing a solid development system that could make Canada competitive in a very easy CONCACAF group.

You're right on all counts. Though, the climate should not be a limiting factor at all. Russia, Ukraine, Austria, Switzerland, Sweden, and the Czech Republic have less than ideal climates, yet they manage to have decent teams with the odd elite talent in a MUCH more difficult confederation.

The main thing I notice about Canadian soccer players at the amateur level in particular is the total selfishness. Its not that players can't pass (well, a lot can't), they choose not to. Everyone wants to be a hero and deke past 6 players... when in reality, player 2 or 3 will put your ass into the turf. Nothing worse than being a support striker on a team where no one knows how to properly pass, or don't provide any service at all. Talk about a feeling of uselessness. I think too many grassroots coaches watch too much hockey or basketball and coach it like that. Selfishness and passes to no one.

I would be impressed if the next Hargreaves or De Guzman really took the CSA to task. Put a set of demands on them in exchange for his playing for the NT, and refusing to play for them unless they do it within 3 years. After which time, they'll go play for someone else. Especially if that player was clutching a Man U, Real, Juventus, Bayern or other elite club's jersey at the same time.

[troutman]

FIFA needs to close these loopholes.

What stops CAN from offering roster spots to 20 Brazilians?

[cSpooge]

Originally Posted by troutman

FIFA needs to close these loopholes.

What stops CAN from offering roster spots to 20 Brazilians?

Our immigration laws stop that lol... The dutch laws are actually pretty liberal when it comes to immigration (that is in the process of changing though).

[troutman]

Originally Posted by cSpooge

Our immigration laws stop that lol... The dutch laws are actually pretty liberal when it comes to immigration (that is in the process of changing though).

CSA could get around the laws - student visas, work permits, marriages of convenience