Muslims, Dutch Clash in Netherlands

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by fotze@Nov 15 2004, 08:42 PM
Kind of scary stuff....

...especially if you realize than Netherlands was considered the most liberl, open, tolerant (towards minorities) country in Europe. If things go crazy there, how bad will things be in, say, eastern Germany where there is a strong neonazi movement as it is? German politicians are already fearing that the clashes will spread soon all over Germany.

[HOZ]

The majority of the Muslim populace in Germany, the largest in Europe, is from Turkey and the Balkans where they are far less radical.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by fotze@Nov 15 2004, 07:42 PM

Seems silly a guy complaining about western infidels while living there. Go back then to your lovely country.

Kind of scary stuff....

I agree. It's kind of like invading Iraq and then complaining about terrorist attacks, but I digress.

The Netherlands also ironically has one of the highest islam conversion rates in the western world. Go figure.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty+Nov 16 2004, 05:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame Of Liberty @ Nov 16 2004, 05:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-fotze@Nov 15 2004, 08:42 PM
Kind of scary stuff....

...especially if you realize than Netherlands was considered the most liberl, open, tolerant (towards minorities) country in Europe. If things go crazy there, how bad will things be in, say, eastern Germany where there is a strong neonazi movement as it is? German politicians are already fearing that the clashes will spread soon all over Germany.[/b][/quote]
I don't know why people are surprised by this act. Remember Salmon Rushdie?

http://www.webcurrent.com/rushdie.html

It never fails to amaze me how quickly people forgive and forget how unforgiving, intolerant, cruel, and abusive these people are--all under the pretense of the Islamic faith. I don't even know if you can call them extremist fanatics of the faith. Manipulators of the faith would be more fitting.

Why are certain people in the western society, with a social agenda, so quick to crawl into bed with these guys and call Bush barbaric?

It makes no sense.

[Flame On]

Originally posted by Sammie+Nov 16 2004, 01:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Nov 16 2004, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

...especially if you realize than Netherlands was considered the most liberl, open, tolerant (towards minorities) country in Europe. If things go crazy there, how bad will things be in, say, eastern Germany where there is a strong neonazi movement as it is? German politicians are already fearing that the clashes will spread soon all over Germany.

I don't know why people are surprised by this act. Remember Salmon Rushdie?

http://www.webcurrent.com/rushdie.html

It never fails to amaze me how quickly people forgive and forget how unforgiving, intolerant, cruel, and abusive these people are--all under the pretense of the Islamic faith. I don't even know if you can call them extremist fanatics of the faith. Manipulators of the faith would be more fitting.

Why are certain people in the western society, with a social agenda, so quick to crawl into bed with these guys and call Bush barbaric?

It makes no sense. [/b][/quote]
Um yeah that's how black and white it is. If you don't like Bush or the WAY he's gone about things, you're automatically in bed with the terrorists.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty@Nov 16 2004, 11:05 AM
...especially if you realize than Netherlands was considered the most liberl, open, tolerant (towards minorities) country in Europe. If things go crazy there, how bad will things be in, say, eastern Germany where there is a strong neonazi movement as it is? German politicians are already fearing that the clashes will spread soon all over Germany.

Strange, I'd not heard that. I know they're remarkably liberal there, but extra tolerance to minorities greater than other Euro states is news to me.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by HOZ@Nov 16 2004, 12:45 PM
The majority of the Muslim populace in Germany, the largest in Europe, is from Turkey and the Balkans where they are far less radical.

That might be true, but what I had in mind was that if this murder untaps so much hate and violence of white majority against muslims in a country that was known as tolerant, what is going to happen in a country where there is enough hate against minorities as it is?

The trouble on one side is that muslim radicals are more or less tolerated by the muslim majority (their friends, relatives etc.) that may not be violent itself. Few days ago, I have read an article written by a Dutch actress (with islamic roots) who played lead role in Van Gogh`s movie, and now she`s in hiding and she made this point. The muslim themselves need to clearly and strongly reject actions of their radicals, otherwise murders like this will act as the last straw for white population in Europe to turn against muslims, with dire consequences.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+Nov 17 2004, 03:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ Nov 17 2004, 03:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Flame Of Liberty@Nov 16 2004, 11:05 AM
...especially if you realize than Netherlands was considered the most liberl, open, tolerant (towards minorities) country in Europe. If things go crazy there, how bad will things be in, say, eastern Germany where there is a strong neonazi movement as it is? German politicians are already fearing that the clashes will spread soon all over Germany.

Strange, I'd not heard that. I know they're remarkably liberal there, but extra tolerance to minorities greater than other Euro states is news to me. [/b][/quote]
Yes, Netherlands was (still is?) extra tolerant towards minorities, not only ethnical, but towards gays or lesbians, or the well known tolerance towards soft drugs.

As for other Euro countries - politicians like Haider (Austria) , LePen (France) or Flam block (or whatever are they called in Belgium), neonazis in Germany (especially in the east) have surprisingly high support. Not only that, nationalism bordering intolerance towards other nationalities, let alone religions (even if not verbally declared) is in the minds of many, many Europeans.

[Lurch]

Yes, Netherlands was (still is?) extra tolerant towards minorities, not only ethnical, but towards gays or lesbians, or the well known tolerance towards soft drugs.

Maybe it's just at soccer games, but you guys may want to look up some of the chants, tension, etc that goes on at Dutch soccer games and within the national team. I was utterly shocked when my friend told me what people were chanting at at the game I went to about 5 years ago during a trip. Also, look up something along the lines of 'Dutch Pillar Society'. Religious segregation was institutionalized until the '70's and there is a pretty strong anti-Semitic subculture (anecdotal from my friend, but there seems to be a fair bit on Google about it).

[RougeUnderoos]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/socc...6/dutch.rdp.ap/

But they are not alone. Holy smokes I could read this site all day. "Not for the faint of heart" is how it's described.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/maarten.geluk/

[Sammie]

Originally posted by Lurch@Nov 17 2004, 02:16 PM

Maybe it's just at soccer games, but you guys may want to look up some of the chants, tension, etc that goes on at Dutch soccer games and within the national team. I was utterly shocked when my friend told me what people were chanting at at the game I went to about 5 years ago during a trip. Also, look up something along the lines of 'Dutch Pillar Society'. Religious segregation was institutionalized until the '70's and there is a pretty strong anti-Semitic subculture (anecdotal from my friend, but there seems to be a fair bit on Google about it).

Obviously we in the west are at fault for causing this fanatical Islamic character to go off the deep end and shoot this Dutch guy, then slit his throat, and leave a threatening message! If we weren't so tolerant about giving people freedom of speech this would never have happened.

How DARE this Van Gogh guy criticize the Moslem faith!!!



:wacko: :baby: :darnkids:

[Daradon]

Originally posted by fotze@Nov 15 2004, 01:42 PM
What Dutch filmmaker and columnist Theo Van Gogh saw as the shabby treatment of females throughout the Muslim community led him to produce documentaries that portrayed Muslim men as tormentors of women, especially their wives. One recent scathingly critical Van Gogh film's carried the message that Islam promotes violence against women.

Last week, Van Gogh, a grandnephew of the painter, was shot as he cycled to work. He managed to get up and stagger across the street to his building where he collapsed. The assailant followed him and slit his throat before pinning to his chest with a knife a five-page manifesto that called on Muslims to rise against the "infidel enemies" in the West.

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/200411...03944-4700r.htm

Seems silly a guy complaining about western infidels while living there. Go back then to your lovely country.

Kind of scary stuff....

Hmmm, didn't this Muslum attacker kind of PROVE Van Gogh's point in this attack?

HOW DARE YOU SAY WE'RE VIOLENT? TAKE THAT!

Bizzare, sick, stupid.

[Looger]

Originally posted by Sammie@Nov 16 2004, 08:26 PM
It never fails to amaze me how quickly people forgive and forget how unforgiving, intolerant, cruel, and abusive these people are--all under the pretense of the Islamic faith.

do me a favour.

add up all the slaughters of innocent civilians in the middle east, the french in algeria, to the resettled palestinians in what is now israel, to the phalange (christian) militiamen that massacred over a thousand men, women, and children, to the israelis handing over ~1000 men the next day to those same militiamen so they could finish the job, add the daily innocents killed in raids in the occupied territories around israel, etc.

now subtract deaths caused by islamic terrorists against non-muslims in the same, say, 50-year time period.

the results may surprise, because that number is WAY positive.

i'm not here saying, 'christians and jews have killed more innocents than muslims have, nah nah nah'.

what i'm here saying is that the mideast is a messed up region for many reasons, including primarily in my books, the last 100 years of western/ottoman mismanagement and outside influence. that includes iran, which if you check into it, really would not be the way it is without us deciding their governments (and oil rights) for them.

it is NOT a muslim-non muslim issue.

as much as many people think it is, it is not.

quite honestly, the historical irony is a little thick, what with western european countries having issues with all the muslims in their countries.

perhaps they should not have colonized those peoples' countries, eh...?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty+Nov 17 2004, 07:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame Of Liberty @ Nov 17 2004, 07:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Strange, I'd not heard that. I know they're remarkably liberal there, but extra tolerance to minorities greater than other Euro states is news to me.

Yes, Netherlands was (still is?) extra tolerant towards minorities, not only ethnical, but towards gays or lesbians, or the well known tolerance towards soft drugs.

As for other Euro countries - politicians like Haider (Austria) , LePen (France) or Flam block (or whatever are they called in Belgium), neonazis in Germany (especially in the east) have surprisingly high support. Not only that, nationalism bordering intolerance towards other nationalities, let alone religions (even if not verbally declared) is in the minds of many, many Europeans. [/b][/quote]
While its obvious that they tolerate drugs and sexuality there, I've still not seen much evidence that they're somehow more tolerant towards visible/ethnic minorities. The Dutch were some hard-assed colonists in SE Asia and were known to use some pretty heavy-handed tactics against the locals.

Not disputing you, but I've never heard that the Dutch stand out as super-liberal in their lack of racist ideology, just when it comes to domestic/social aspects.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by Looger+Nov 21 2004, 10:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Looger @ Nov 21 2004, 10:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Sammie@Nov 16 2004, 08:26 PM
It never fails to amaze me how quickly people forgive and forget how unforgiving, intolerant, cruel, and abusive these people are--all under the pretense of the Islamic faith.

do me a favour.

add up all the slaughters of innocent civilians in the middle east, the french in algeria, to the resettled palestinians in what is now israel, to the phalange (christian) militiamen that massacred over a thousand men, women, and children, to the israelis handing over ~1000 men the next day to those same militiamen so they could finish the job, add the daily innocents killed in raids in the occupied territories around israel, etc.

now subtract deaths caused by islamic terrorists against non-muslims in the same, say, 50-year time period.

the results may surprise, because that number is WAY positive.

i'm not here saying, 'christians and jews have killed more innocents than muslims have, nah nah nah'.

what i'm here saying is that the mideast is a messed up region for many reasons, including primarily in my books, the last 100 years of western/ottoman mismanagement and outside influence. that includes iran, which if you check into it, really would not be the way it is without us deciding their governments (and oil rights) for them.

it is NOT a muslim-non muslim issue.

as much as many people think it is, it is not.

quite honestly, the historical irony is a little thick, what with western european countries having issues with all the muslims in their countries.

perhaps they should not have colonized those peoples' countries, eh...?[/b][/quote]
Why are you asking me to do the work? It's not up to me to convince myself that you are right. You do the homework. Prove to me that you have the right facts.

To be honest, I think you out to lunch on this one. Israel and the western world don't go around strapped with bombs blowing up seniors, pregnant women and children. Our societies won't tolerate barbaric behavior like that. Just look at what happened to the soldier that shot the wounded, unarmed insurgent.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie+Nov 22 2004, 06:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Nov 22 2004, 06:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

do me a favour.

add up all the slaughters of innocent civilians in the middle east, the french in algeria, to the resettled palestinians in what is now israel, to the phalange (christian) militiamen that massacred over a thousand men, women, and children, to the israelis handing over ~1000 men the next day to those same militiamen so they could finish the job, add the daily innocents killed in raids in the occupied territories around israel, etc.

now subtract deaths caused by islamic terrorists against non-muslims in the same, say, 50-year time period.

the results may surprise, because that number is WAY positive.

i'm not here saying, 'christians and jews have killed more innocents than muslims have, nah nah nah'.

what i'm here saying is that the mideast is a messed up region for many reasons, including primarily in my books, the last 100 years of western/ottoman mismanagement and outside influence. that includes iran, which if you check into it, really would not be the way it is without us deciding their governments (and oil rights) for them.

it is NOT a muslim-non muslim issue.

as much as many people think it is, it is not.

quite honestly, the historical irony is a little thick, what with western european countries having issues with all the muslims in their countries.

perhaps they should not have colonized those peoples' countries, eh...?

Why are you asking me to do the work? It's not up to me to convince myself that you are right. You do the homework. Prove to me that you have the right facts.

To be honest, I think you out to lunch on this one. Israel and the western world don't go around strapped with bombs blowing up seniors, pregnant women and children. Our societies won't tolerate barbaric behavior like that. Just look at what happened to the soldier that shot the wounded, unarmed insurgent. [/b][/quote]
What exactly is your stance here? Do you think fanatic Muslim terrorists have killed more people in the last 50 years than western and Israeli militaries have?

[Sammie]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Nov 22 2004, 08:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Nov 22 2004, 08:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Sammie@Nov 22 2004, 06:53 PM

Why are you asking me to do the work? It's not up to me to convince myself that you are right. You do the homework. Prove to me that you have the right facts.

To be honest, I think you out to lunch on this one.# Israel and the western world don't go around strapped with bombs blowing up seniors, pregnant women and children. Our societies won't tolerate barbaric behavior like that. Just look at what happened to the soldier that shot the wounded, unarmed insurgent.

What exactly is your stance here? Do you think fanatic Muslim terrorists have killed more people in the last 50 years than western and Israeli militaries have?[/b][/quote]
No. I thought I was very clear on that. You're not trying to make it appear I'm saying something I didn't, are you? Casualties caused by fighting in wars between soldiers, terrorists, insurgents, guerillas, and rebels don't count. Our soldiers also don't hide behind civilian human shields (made up of women and children) in mosques and churches. Thankfully most of our western governments are principled and value all human lives.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie+Nov 22 2004, 09:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Nov 22 2004, 09:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

What exactly is your stance here? Do you think fanatic Muslim terrorists have killed more people in the last 50 years than western and Israeli militaries have?

No. I thought I was very clear on that. You're not trying to make it appear I'm saying something I didn't, are you? Casualties caused by fighting in wars between soldiers, terrorists, insurgents, guerillas, and rebels don't count. Our soldiers also don't hide behind civilian human shields (made up of women and children) in mosques and churches. Thankfully most of our western governments are principled and value all human lives. [/b][/quote]
No I'm not trying to make it appear that you are saying something you didn't so I asked a very straightforward question.

"Casualties caused by fighting in wars between soldiers, terrorists, insurgents, guerillas, and rebels don't count."

I'm willing to wager a considerable sum that they do in fact "count". I guarantee they "count" to the families of the dead people.

Tens of thousands of innocent civilians have died during the "War On Terror" so I don't think I agree with your assertion that "our western governments are principled and value all human lives". The "value all human lives" thing just doesn't mesh with the concept of "collateral damage".

Multiple Choice Question Time:

I would prefer my wife/child/mom/friend killed by:

A: cruise missile
B: suicide bomber
C: daisy cutter
D: all of the above

[Looger]

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/..._Casualties.asp

thousands to hundreds, thousands to hundreds.

that's israel, where the supposed core of the western world / muslim world conflict lies, for those of you that get your history lessons from CNN.

[Looger]

Originally posted by Sammie@Nov 23 2004, 04:07 AM
Casualties caused by fighting in wars between soldiers, terrorists, insurgents, guerillas, and rebels don't count. Our soldiers also don't hide behind civilian human shields (made up of women and children) in mosques and churches. Thankfully most of our western governments are principled and value all human lives.

so, let me get this straight.

the west, us, is always right.

so, when we invade a country, with planes, bombs, guns, and the like, we are obviously coming in with the best possible intentions and all the people should welcome us, right?

and when civilian centers start blowing up, not because terrorists are hiding in front of them, but because oppostion could use it, then that's all ok, right?

if country A invaded my country, country B, to oust a leader that did almost all of his bad bad things to countries B, C, D, etc. whilst country A stood by him, i would be less than amused.

point of fact i would probably resist.

and all those french resistance heroes from WW2, dressing as civilians, they were right to oppose their occupier, but the iraqis are... wrong, right?

look at a picture of a city in the mideast. mosques dominate, they are tall and make great sniper positions.

and guerilla warfare puts the civilians you're trying to liberate near the bottom of the priority list, somewhere slightly above the unwanted guests in your home. standard procedure.

as for palestinians, most alive today have known only the struggle. they have nothing else. point of fact their entire national identity was forged by israeli beligerrence - many israel apologists will tell you that the zionists bought the land off the arabs - one of the most pervasive fallacies ever. in a sense they are right - some jews bought some land off some arabs. they bought the land off _some_ arabs alright, in damascus and riyadh etc. that probably had never been to palestine. the people on the land were not exactly consulted - just their absentee landlords, chosen by the west, of course.

i mean, sure, whatever, wrong place, wrong time, right? i mean it's not like talmudic prophecy calls on jews to put all of the people living in reborn israel to the sword, man, woman and child, right? it's so obviously not religious extremism when it's not muslims, right? and it's not like the knesset has anywhere from 5-10% religious extremists signing into any coalition that promises settlements will remain, right?

religious violence is religious violence, and deaths are deaths.

your "right" and "wrong" seem to be tied to sides, but i'm here to tell you that there are only two sides - an individual and the people invading his home.

when you stand on someone's throat don't look shocked when they kick you in the balls.