Ackles: NFL in Toronto means end of CFL - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

albertGQ · 10-04-2007, 10:50 AM

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/news_story/?ID=219854&hubname=cfl

If I was in Toronto, I'd rather go to an NFL game than a CFL game any day of the week

SportsJunky · 10-04-2007, 11:03 AM

I don't think it kills the CFL but it definitely weakens the league in Ontario. The schedules only overlap for about the second half of the CFL season but maybe the owners would consider starting the season a little earlier up here. I wouldn't miss sitting in -25C to cheer on the Stampeders.

Thunderball · 10-04-2007, 11:06 AM

Wouldn't bother me in the least.

Say it happens and the CFL folds. The CFL has proven that Canada possesses 4 very strong football markets, namely Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton and Montreal, as well as two fairly strong markets in Hamilton and Winnipeg that could support a level at least as high as the CFL. There are several American cities that could support the NFL that may never get the chance. There would also be a surplus of solid players needing a place to play. The solutions?

- NFL Division 1 and Division 2. European style... the best 3 teams in Div 2 go up every year, and the bottom 3 teams get demoted.

- NFL Division 1 and Division 2. North American style... division 2 teams would be like a cross between AAA baseball and the AHL, and with strong American markets combined with the non-Toronto, yet substantial Canadian markets would likely end up with a good TV presence, and more money for better players. Because of the strong Canadian contingent, there would be a chance for some of the better Canadian rules to be incorporated into the NFL.

One thing is for certain, the NFL (even "Division 2") would not tolerate lousy stadia, and would force Calgary to upgrade. That alone is worth the pain of losing the CFL.

Resolute 14 · 10-04-2007, 11:10 AM

There will NEVER be a European style promotion/relegation system in the major sports in North America.

1. Toronto seriously overrates itself.

2. Even if the CFL did crumble, as you say, there are plenty of markets in the US as well. Some kind of minor league would form, though I would never support it since I hate four down footbal.

Bobblehead · 10-04-2007, 11:26 AM

Montreal lost their team once. Stamps were pretty close to going doing down a decade ago. Vancouver has had a few pretty bad years. I don't really know about Edmonton - they made the playoffs so many years it is tough to know what would happen with a sustained bout of mediocrity (but we are going to find out very soon). Only Sask seems to support their team consistently through thick and thin.

I think the CFL could make a go without the Argos, but you would need another team in the east. (I still think Ottawa could work if you had a solid, long term onwnership, but it would take 5 years without a threat of leaving before people could trust the franchise again).

ken0042 · 10-04-2007, 11:27 AM

Why would the loss of the Argos mean then end of the CFL? You would eliminate one of the higher end payroll teams; meaning the talent pool would go down a bit based on what other teams could afford. But now you open the market for places like Victoria, Halifax, and Quebec City to have teams. There's also the possiblity for smarter expansion into the States- places like Fargo and Spokane.

I still also think that TO getting an NFL team is a bit of a pipe dream. You have Buffalo who would oppose it; and the last breakdown of costs I saw indicated about a billion dollars needed.

Bottom line is one of the steps needed was for Toronto to show it supported pro football. Ok- now they have a couple of years of ~30K attendance. So they have that one step in place.

In my mind- you will see an NFL team in Toronto after you see an NHL team in Winnipeg.

Thunderball · 10-04-2007, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

There will NEVER be a European style promotion/relegation system in the major sports in North America.

You're most likely right. I had to mention it though, as it would invariably be an option (probably the first dismissed option, but i digress)

Its a shame that it would never be adapted, as it adds a true sense of urgency to a league. Teams wouldn't be able to gas a season to get a nice draft pick, since they'd have to fight for their survival in the first division and the likely larger revenues of being there.

flip · 10-04-2007, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Wouldn't bother me in the least.

Say it happens and the CFL folds. The CFL has proven that Canada possesses 4 very strong football markets, namely Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton and Montreal, as well as two fairly strong markets in Hamilton and Winnipeg that could support a level at least as high as the CFL.

ummm no.

there are 4 potential big markets but right now vancouver is not a huge market. only reason they care about the lions is because they are winning.

montreal is the same thing.

only Sask, edm, hamilton and calgary are guaranteed football towns. in fact sask has the highest per capita number of football players in the country so they are a good market just not a big one.

Thunderball · 10-04-2007, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

ummm no.

there are 4 potential big markets but right now vancouver is not a huge market. only reason they care about the lions is because they are winning.

montreal is the same thing.

only Sask, edm, hamilton and calgary are guaranteed football towns. in fact sask has the highest per capita number of football players in the country so they are a good market just not a big one.

Neither Saskatoon or Regina would be sufficient markets for anything bigger than the CFL. Travel costs, stadia improvements and player costs that would be indicative of a league half way in between the CFL and NFL would be outside their grasp...they barely survive in the CFL and its small salary cap. While Montreal and Vancouver are fickle fan bases, they're still markets of over 3 million each. Hamilton would be doable cause of its proximity to the GTA, kind of like a larger Green Bay with Milwaukee. Edmonton is the only sure thing, sad to say, since Calgary has a godawful 50 year old heap of a stadium... even mid size American colleges have better stadiums than McMahon. We would need to promise huge upgrades right away.

Winnipeg would be the weak sister for sure, but since there's nothing else close to major league, they might be able to scrounge up needed support as they do for the Bombers. Their stadium would need work too.

troutman · 10-04-2007, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albertGQ

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/news_story/?ID=219854&hubname=cfl

If I was in Toronto, I'd rather go to an NFL game than a CFL game any day of the week

Can't we enjoy both?

Why does it always have to be one or the other?

Bobblehead · 10-04-2007, 01:27 PM

There have been rumours swirling around for a while now that Ted Rogers is heading a group to buy the Bills and move them to TO after Ralph Wilson passes on.

ken0042 · 10-04-2007, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Neither Saskatoon or Regina would be sufficient markets for anything bigger than the CFL.

I obviously read his post differently than you did, because I read it as cities where the CFL would continue to thrive with no Toronto, not potential NFL cities.

Thunderball · 10-04-2007, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken0042

I obviously read his post differently than you did, because I read it as cities where the CFL would continue to thrive with no Toronto, not potential NFL cities.

That's fair... I was going on the premise that if Toronto left, the CFL would fold and a new league would have to form. I was more or less talking the hypotheticals of that. Since he quoted my saying, "say it happens and the CFL folds", I assumed we were talking the same thing.

I think the CFL could survive without Toronto, but it would not be the same. TSN and CBC would more than likely follow Toronto to the NFL and who could blame them... (there's more NFL fans in Canada and with the largest market gone, revenues would be down for them) The CFL would be left with a much smaller cut. While this would improve the chances of smaller franchises coming in, the big ones and their fan bases would likely be unimpressed with the result.

albertGQ · 10-04-2007, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troutman

Can't we enjoy both?

Why does it always have to be one or the other?

We can enjoy both. Like in Calgary, I'd go to the odd Hitmen game, but would rather go to a Flames game instead, any day of the week.

The same with the CFL and NFL if I lived in TO

Fuzzy McGillicuddy · 10-05-2007, 11:17 PM

I think it's highly unlikely the NFL will end up in Toronto anytime soon. For starters, the NFL loves the current 32 team league. That number of teams blends well with the divisional makeup, scheduling and playoffs. The priority for the NFL is getting a team into Los Angeles because it's the #2 television market in the U.S. Establishing another team in LA will probably come through relocation and not by expansion. There are also other U.S. markets salivating for an NFL team. Toronto is not a priority.

Toronto believes it is on the NFL radar. But I don't believe it is.

Flames in 07 · 10-08-2007, 07:01 PM

I don't get why this idea even gets press, my guess is that now that the NFL is all about being a worldwide league, and one day dreams of such, they are floating weather balloons all over the place. The day they create a world wide league is the day TO gets a team, but it will never, ever get a team in the current US structure.

There are so many reasons why it won't happen and likely so obvious to NFL fans thatit's not important to list.

Thunderball · 10-09-2007, 09:33 AM

Toronto might not like this, but the idea might be to build a "second division" of the NFL. There's a lot of good American markets who don't have teams that would sell out like crazy and generate a lot of money. Not to mention with a second division, they can experiment with Canada (and Mexico City).

oilboy2 · 10-09-2007, 08:34 PM

Time will tell if toronto gets one. I guess we will know soon as the nfl is playing a regular season game in canada next year on thanksgiving weekend and from what it sounds like Edmonton is in the top of the running for this. That would be a real punch in the face to toronto if they dont play a game in the "next nfl city"

vicphoenix13 · 10-10-2007, 12:08 PM

Anybody who doesn't think Vancouver is a strong CFL market is out to lunch. The reason the Lions struggled to keep a fanbase in the late 90's is because the team was poorly marketed. I went to one Lions game about seven years ago where the halftime show consisted of linedancing. I couldn't believe the Lions marketing department wasn't fired after that embarrassment. But then Bobby Ackles returned and everything changed. Ackles marketed the team brilliantly and brought in a great coach like Wally Buono. Some of Ackles ideas included allowing fans to purchase Grey Cup rings and celebrating the teams history by honoring former players. The last couple years, the Lions have averaged over 30,000 fans a game. That won't change as long as Ackles and Buono are over seeing the Lions.

Fuzzy McGillicuddy · 10-11-2007, 10:22 AM

The owners of the Argos are pursuing an NFL team for Toronto with the pitch that it would actually help the CFL. Next, the Argo's owners have some ocean-front property in Saskatchewan they'd like to sell.

http://www.rbcinvest.theglobeandmail...ontpage/3/3/5/

Trying to attract an NFL team to Toronto is a pipe dream. It's as futile as the Leafs winning a Cup anytime soon.