Religious-school funding to be a 'defining issue'

[HelloHockeyFans]

As all three major political parties in Ontario begin staking out their ground for the campaign, financing for religious schools is one of the few issues that shows a sharp difference between Mr. McGuinty and Mr. Tory.

Mr. Tory accused the Premier yesterday of "fear mongering" and pointed out that Ontario is the only province that pays the entire cost for students who attend Roman Catholic schools and none of the costs for students who attend Islamic, Jewish or other faith-based schools. Six other provinces fund faith-based schools, he said on CBC Radio's Here and Now. "They have not seen public education disappear as we know it," Mr. Tory said.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...ional/Ontario/

And another piece regarding this issue, from the Ottawa Citizen.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/...8-deca5701c119

Oh, and Dalton McGuinty Jr. -- the premier, that is -- says he won't even discuss the removal of public funding from Catholic schools. That's the system we inherited, he says when pressed. It's in the Constitution. Of course he conveniently omits the fact that this can be changed with a quick, bilateral constitutional amendment, as Quebec and Newfoundland did in recent years.

How do you feel about public tax dollars funding a Catholic School system that the tax payer may not necessarily support?

Is it unfair that one particular religion receives this funding, while other religions are snubbed?

[kermitology]

Pay for all or none. So from a tax payers perspective, pay for none. Additional funding can come from parents if they are dead set on sending them to religious schools.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

[I]

Is it unfair that one particular religion receives this funding, while other religions are snubbed?

Yup.

The government shouldn't be funding any religious schools.

In my opinion this is a clear case of where we need separation of state and church. Otherwise there is no justifiable argument as to why all religions (even the nutbar cult ones) shouldn't be getting funding for (otherwise accredited) schools.

[HelloHockeyFans]

Are Catholic schools still paid for in Alberta by the public? The article mentioned most provinces abandoning this old practice, but didn't give specific provinces.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

I say go ahead and do what Alberta does.
If the demand is great enough for these schools, let them set up their own school board, and allow tax payers to choose to support whichever system they choose.
If demand isn't great enought, then treat them like any other private school and give the the same funding those schools would receive (if any). If there is enough public demand to support an additional school board, then go ahead.

Debates like this always make me laugh, people say things like:
How do you feel about public tax dollars funding a Catholic School system that the tax payer may not necessarily support.
Well in Alberta, we choose who to support, and there are clearly a large number of parents who choose to send their children to these schools.

It's like any other Government program. If the demand/public support is there, then go ahead.

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

Are Catholic schools still paid for in Alberta by the public? The article mentioned most provinces abandoning this old practice, but didn't give specific provinces.

Yes, but not all of it.

But Seperate School funding was literally a founding fathers kind of question. It was resolved as a major issue at the time and there was not a lot of leway....

To be honest, many of the most ardent Athiests i know went to Seperate School (as did i) and many of the most religious went to Public School. In Seperate School not only do you usually have access to a fairly strong world religion curriculum but you also have an entire peer group to sit and question (ridicule?) what is being taught as a whole. Versus what i have seen in a lot of Public School situations where each kid goes home after school and then has the religion of their fathers choice pounded into their head on the weekends, with little chance for peer review or youthful criticism! Of course many eventually rebel from that too... just some general thoughts, regardless.... As long as these schools have to have a strong world religion class and are held to the same science standards it is a bigger issue on paper than it is in reality IMHO....



Claeren.

[Ford Prefect]

There is one seriously flawed aspect of Alberta's tax setup for funding Catholic schools in the province. If you have been baptised and confirmed as a Catholic you must pledge your education taxes to the Catholic school system, whether you are a practising Catholic or not. I am a militantly non-practising Catholic for personal reasons and whiskey will freeze in hades before my tax dollars go to the Catholic system, so I'm forced to lie about my religious background to keep my education taxes from going to the Catholic's. It's no biggie ... more bureaucracy and logistics than anything. But still, I shoudn't have to lie to get my taxes directed where I want ... what I'm doing is probably illegal and considered tax fraud. I'd love to argue it out in court if they ever decide to charge me.

[HelloHockeyFans]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I say go ahead and do what Alberta does.
If the demand is great enough for these schools, let them set up their own school board, and allow tax payers to choose to support whichever system they choose.
If demand isn't great enought, then treat them like any other private school and give the the same funding those schools would receive (if any). If there is enough public demand to support an additional school board, then go ahead.

Debates like this always make me laugh, people say things like:
How do you feel about public tax dollars funding a Catholic School system that the tax payer may not necessarily support.
Well in Alberta, we choose who to support, and there are clearly a large number of parents who choose to send their children to these schools.

It's like any other Government program. If the demand/public support is there, then go ahead.

Not sure why it makes you laugh.

If the system actually treated everyone equally, there'd be one secular school system that would be available to everyone... without discrimination.

Currently in Ontario, there are two parallel systems: one that is public to everyone regardless of their religious beliefs, and another one which often denies entry for those who are not Catholic.

Is this fair?

Either give the tax payers the option to fund ANY education system they wish for their children, OR eliminate all options except for a single, truly unbiased, secular one.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

There is one seriously flawed aspect of Alberta's tax setup for funding Catholic schools in the province. If you have been baptised and confirmed as a Catholic you must pledge your education taxes to the Catholic school system, whether you are a practising Catholic or not. I am a militantly non-practising Catholic for personal reasons and whiskey will freeze in hades before my tax dollars go to the Catholic system, so I'm forced to lie about my religious background to keep my education taxes from going to the Catholic's. It's no biggie ... more bureaucracy and logistics than anything. But still, I shoudn't have to lie to get my taxes directed where I want ... what I'm doing is probably illegal and considered tax fraud. I'd love to argue it out in court if they ever decide to charge me.

I'm not sure why you think you're forced to lie.
I'm fairly certain, all you have to do is check a little box on your tax forms that specify which school board you want to support. Is it that big of a deal?

[HelloHockeyFans]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I'm not sure why you think you're forced to lie.
I'm fairly certain, all you have to do is check a little box on your tax forms that specify which school board you want to support. Is it that big of a deal?

Why is there no box to divert your funds to a Muslim school if you so choose?

Why are Catholics guaranteed a publicly-funded school choice, while everyone else is guaranteed a choice of public or... well, just public?

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by fotze

I didn't know that. I don't remember it saying you must pledge to the catholics side

I am baptised and all that jazz and I didn't pledge my taxes to the catholic system. My kid isn't/won't be baptised so he couldn't go to a catholic school if we wanted so they can lick sac if they want my tax money.

I'm basing this on my personal experiences. Each of the three times I've bought a house (twice in Calgary and once in Drumheller) I've had to declare Catholic or public school support, and I've been instructed each time that if I'm Catholic my education taxes by default have to go to the Catholic system. I could have taken the easy road and just lied up front, but this is a touchy issue with me so I've debated the issue each time. Once I tell them my reasons they have been accommodating and turned a blind eye to my false declaration, but it's stupid that it should be that way to start with. It falsely pads the tax support of the Catholic system, and in turn depletes funding that should be going to the public side. Not to mention that it's an unacceptable intrusion of church on state in my books. Perhaps things are different now ... I haven't bought property in the last seven years so they could have changed the rule in the interim. But throughout the 1980s and up until 2000 that is what I encountered.

[Bobblehead]

Don't they just ask you what board you support?

I mean I have always supported the public board, and don't recall being asked what my specific religion is.


Edit: beat to the punch. Just goes to show what happens when I actually answer my phone.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

Not sure why it makes you laugh.

If the system actually treated everyone equally, there'd be one secular school system that would be available to everyone... without discrimination.

Currently in Ontario, there are two parallel systems: one that is public to everyone regardless of their religious beliefs, and another one which often denies entry for those who are not Catholic.

Is this fair?

Either give the tax payers the option to fund ANY education system they wish for their children, OR eliminate all options except for a single, truly unbiased, secular one.

It makes me laugh because you're asking how people who support a certain program feel about their tax dollars going to that program.
Honestly, for the most part, the portion of our taxes that go to school funding (at least in Alberta) is the only place where we have a direct say in where the money goes. That seems like a great thing to me.

In any debate like this people go on like the ones using the service aren't contributing at all, when at least in the case of the Catholic school system in Alberta, that clearly isn't the case.

Clearly there is enough support in some areas for seperate school boards, and where this support exists, then by all means go ahead and give people the choice to support whichever system they choose. All other things being equal, where is the problem?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

Why is there no box to divert your funds to a Muslim school if you so choose?

Why are Catholics guaranteed a publicly-funded school choice, while everyone else is guaranteed a choice of public or... well, just public?

First of all, it really isn't that difficult to get into a Catholic school if you aren't Catholic. I know a LOT of non-Catholics that went to a Catholic school for various reasons.

As to the Muslim school. Sure, go ahead and find me an area where the population of Muslims is high enough to support a seperate school board, and I'll fully back their right to get their own box. If they want to set up their own private school outside of a recognized school board, then by all means give them the same funding any other private school (religous or not) would receive.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I'm not sure why you think you're forced to lie.
I'm fairly certain, all you have to do is check a little box on your tax forms that specify which school board you want to support. Is it that big of a deal?

Yes, all you have to do is check off the apprpriate box, but according to the rules as they have been explained to me by tax people, if I'm Catholic my education taxes are supposed to, by law, default to the Catholic system. Is it that big a deal? To me it is based on various principles, therefore I use the opportunity debate the matter with tax officials. Could I just check of the public box and shut up? Yes, if I could resist the urge to lock horns with tax officials about the practice. I'm also always concerned that they'll do some kind of background check and overide my direction to support the publlc system if they determine my religious affiliation to be Catholic, even if that religious affiliation is dormant.

[HelloHockeyFans]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

It makes me laugh because you're asking how people who support a certain program feel about their tax dollars going to that program.
Honestly, for the most part, the portion of our taxes that go to school funding (at least in Alberta) is the only place where we have a direct say in where the money goes. That seems like a great thing to me.

In any debate like this people go on like the ones using the service aren't contributing at all, when at least in the case of the Catholic school system in Alberta, that clearly isn't the case.

Clearly there is enough support in some areas for seperate school boards, and where this support exists, then by all means go ahead and give people the choice to support whichever system they choose. All other things being equal, where is the problem?

The problem is that fundamental equality rights are not currently being provided.

In the current system, publicly-funded CHOICE in education is exclusive to Roman Catholics and discriminatory towards non-believers of that one particular faith.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Yes, all you have to do is check off the apprpriate box, but according to the rules as they have been explained to me by tax people, if I'm Catholic my education taxes are supposed to, by law, default to the Catholic system. Is it that big a deal? To me it is based on various principles, therefore I use the opportunity debate the matter with tax officials. Could I just check of the public box and shut up? Yes, if I could resist the urge to lock horns with tax officials about the practice. I'm also always concerned that they'll do some kind of background check and overide my direction to support the publlc system if they determine my religious affiliation to be Catholic, even if that religious affiliation is dormant.

I've never been told that my taxes have to go to the Catholic system.
In fact for a while I accidentally alloted my to the public board. I went to Catholic school, and before I bought my own place, I had prviously lived with my parents who had supported the Catholic system for 30 years, and mine defaulted to the public board, so I'm fairly certain that you are out to lunch on thinking that your taxes by law have to go to the Catholic Board if you're Catholic.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I've never been told that my taxes have to go to the Catholic system.
In fact for a while I accidentally alloted my to the public board. I went to Catholic school, and before I bought my own place, I had prviously lived with my parents who had supported the Catholic system for 30 years, and mine defaulted to the public board, so I'm fairly certain that you are out to lunch on thinking that your taxes by law have to go to the Catholic Board if you're Catholic.

I am basing my statment on what I have been told by tax officials on the three occasions that I have purchased property, as I have stated above. If I am out to lunch it is because that is the information tax officials have given me. If the situation is now otherwise, it's possible that the rules have changed in the seven years since I last purchased property, as I've also mentioned above. I don't see why you need to accuse me of being out to lunch because of what I've been told by provincial tax officials and the personal experiences I've had with this matter ... sheesh.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

The problem is that fundamental equality rights are not currently being provided.

In the current system, publicly-funded CHOICE in education is exclusive to Roman Catholics and discriminatory towards non-believers of that one particular faith.

Is the choice right now limited to Catholic and Public?
Yup.
Is that descriminatory?
I don't think so.
There's nothing stopping a sufficiently large population from some other religion from applying to operate their own school board and gain recognition is there? There just isn't the will, support, or more likely the demand to do it.

If you can show me that some other group with a sufficently large population has tried and been denied, the I'll agree 100% that they are beign descriminated against, but if it hasn't happened then calling it discriminitory is putting the cart just a little before the horse.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

I am basing my statment on what I have been told by tax officials on the three occasions that I have purchased property, as I have stated above. If I am out to lunch it is because that is the information tax officials have given me. If the situation is now otherwise, it's possible that the rules have changed in the seven years since I last purchased property, as I've also mentioned above. I don't see why you need to accuse me of being out to lunch because of what I've been told by provincial tax officials and the personal experiences I've had with this matter ... sheesh.

I appologize for the out to lunch comment, I suppose I meant more along the lines of out of date, or misinformed.
Who knows, maybe that is the law, I'm fairly certian it isn't, but I'm at least I'm sure that it isn't in any way enforced, as my own personal experience would attest.