For you history buffs (midway)

[CaptainCrunch]

So I'm up late because I just can't sleep, my vacation ends on Tuesday and I'm going back to a job that I'm not enjoying. But I'm watching the movie, Midway on the history channel, which is a recreation of the battle of Midway using both archival footage and filmed battles and it got me to thinking.

The battle of Midway changed the way that naval battles were fought as it ushered in the age of the carrier and signaled the end of the age of battleships, it also was the beginning of the end of Japanese power in the pacific and started the era of the United States as a unoppssed superpower.

The battle of Vimy Ridge in WWI was a defining moment in Canada's history when we were seen as something other then a vassal of the British empire.

The October revolution in Russia both moved the Russian Empire away from its monarcy and also doomed the country to decades of horrible backwardness and the supression of millions of civilians, whereas the battle of Stalingrad efectively spelled the end of Nazi aggression and began its collapse back to Berlin and defined the Russians as a very real superpower threat, and a boogey man for 40 years.

I'd like to see what other people think were major historical turning points in nations histories and why.

Like I said, I think it would be something that might be interesting to debate in the light of all of the bad news thats hit this board lately in terms of recent history.

or not.

[STeeLy]

To be honest, I agree with you on most of your points...

Except that I do believe the beginning of the end of Japanese power in the pacific ended long before Midway, the decision to attack pearl harbour was the beginning from a point of view. Yamamoto had already said that they could dominate the first six months. Had they listened and not attack the American forces at Pearl Harbour and screwed with the Russians, things would have been completely different.

That and the Japanese missed a couple of fuel tanks and the carriers, had they gotten those, Allied forces in the pacific could have been seriously crippled.

But, turning point in nations' history... I really can't give u any.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by STeeLy

To be honest, I agree with you on most of your points...

Except that I do believe the beginning of the end of Japanese power in the pacific ended long before Midway, the decision to attack pearl harbour was the beginning from a point of view. Yamamoto had already said that they could dominate the first six months. Had they listened and not attack the American forces at Pearl Harbour and screwed with the Russians, things would have been completely different.

That and the Japanese missed a couple of fuel tanks and the carriers, had they gotten those, Allied forces in the pacific could have been seriously crippled.

But, turning point in nations' history... I really can't give u any.

I can't disagree with your above points, there was a massive failure on the part of the Japanese intelligence about the locations of the American front line carriers.

Yamamoto was horrified that the declaration of war arrived after the attack on Pearl Harbour, he saw that an Enraged America would be akin to kicking a tiger in the ass.

Pearl Harbour was a smart strategic move since the Japanese felt that the American's would have eventually entered the war anyways due to Japan's need to own the Pacific ocean.

Its interesting that some Japanese felt that Pearl Harbour was a mistake, whereas more then a few American's thought that the Doolittle Raid on Japan was a strategic mistake since the fleet was too weak at the time to stand up to the possibility of Japanese retaliation.

[GreenLantern]

Ok its late and I am tired but I will jump in this thread as best I can with a few examples, I will see what I can add tomorrow.

Pearl Harbour was never meant to be just an attack on the Americans. They went there with the intent of taking the Americans out of he Pacific war before it even began. Had they sunk all of their carriers at the Harbour the Americans would have been down to one maybe two carriers that needed to be transported from the East coast, which they did eventually anyway. However, this would have taken time, and by then who knows how much farther along the Japanese would have been in their conquest of the Pacific. The attack on PH was cordinated with a massive effort against all neutral-enemy positions near the Home Island. It was succesful in a sense because it put a stun on the American navy long enough for them to take control of the majority of the Islands.

The Storming of the Bastille, July 14th, 1789: A young General by the name of Napoleon watched with disgust as the people of France stormed the Bastille. He watched the mob and grew a distaste for all disorder. He swore to himself and those around him that one day he would demand order from the people of France. This battle is what started the snowball of strict military rule that would be instilled by Napoleon once he rose to power. In all of his days as Emporer and those leading up to it he would remember watching the mob rebel so openly against the same hand that protects them. He would never forget the dishonour, and he would put forth such an effort to make sure it did not happen again.

The Parliamentary Reforms of Edward III: Unlike his Father Edward II, Edward III would do great things for Parliament. It was during this time that the first Speaker was appointed, a voice for the commons was finally given. A group of subjects who for so long had been opressed by the nobility were finally given a voice to speak out against injustice. He insured that all of his Sherriffs were given proper evaluations and worked hard against corruption. This is just a taste of the reforms he would implement during his time, but I do not feel like digging through this paper at 1 in the morning :P Rest assured though this would be a defining moment for Parliament. It was not the start of the shift of power from Monarch to Government, but it was definately one of the most important periods. Especially considering it was the middle ages and many of the practices put in place are still followed today.

[STeeLy]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I can't disagree with your above points, there was a massive failure on the part of the Japanese intelligence about the locations of the American front line carriers.

Yamamoto was horrified that the declaration of war arrived after the attack on Pearl Harbour, he saw that an Enraged America would be akin to kicking a tiger in the ass.

Pearl Harbour was a smart strategic move since the Japanese felt that the American's would have eventually entered the war anyways due to Japan's need to own the Pacific ocean.

Its interesting that some Japanese felt that Pearl Harbour was a mistake, whereas more then a few American's thought that the Doolittle Raid on Japan was a strategic mistake since the fleet was too weak at the time to stand up to the possibility of Japanese retaliation.

Though I am neither Japanese nor American, I do believe that both of these were mistakes but they were needed. had Pearl Harbour not been attacked, it is possible that the Phillipines, Australia and many parts of the Asia Pacific would be under Japanese control for a very very lengthy period of time, with no American intervention, it would be hell for those countries. (Because I honestly think that without Americans, the Japanese people would not be what they are today).

As for the Doolittle Raid, I haven't looked into it that much so I really can't comment, all I can say is, its that the doolittle raid was way too risky with the Japanese on the coast of China and no way to land on anything else other than land or ditching it in the sea. But I guess risks are something u have to take in war or u're never gonna get anywhere.

[HOZ]

Battle of Waterloo - The end of Napoleon
- From that moment on the British Empire had no peer for 100 years.


Battle of Tsushima Straits 1905 - Japanese annihilate the Russian fleet setting the spark that ignited the Russian Revolution and Japan's rise to be an Asian Empire.

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Battle of Waterloo - The end of Napoleon
- From that moment on the British Empire had no peer for 100 years.


Battle of Tsushima Straits 1905 - Japanese annihilate the Russian fleet setting the spark that ignited the Russian Revolution and Japan's rise to be an Asian Empire.

Interesting events, but hardly turning points.

Napoleon was done in 1912 after he dithered in Moscow for three weeks for no good reason.

Japan's prominence seems to depend on whether the Chinese are being competent or not.

[Vulcan]

Louis Riel rebellion. It not only took away native and Metis land rights but it forced Canada to send in the military and strengthen our claim to the west. To get the soldiers out west we had to embarassingly rely on American railroads, so it became a priority to build our own and unite the country.

[chris lindberg]

Didn't the Government of Canada grant the Metis most of the province of Manitoba way back when?

Michigan state was supposed to become an Indian Country also, but the Canadians backed out and left Tecumseh and his people to be slaughterd by the Americans, Canada would have power over most of the Great Lakes with an Indian Country in Michigan State.

[nmhen]

Without claiming to be more than casually informed on the topic, wasn't the value of the Doolittle raid more in PR and morale than militarily strategic?

The idea that we (I am American) could stand up to the evil menace (Japan) and strike them on their own soil was seen as an important salve to the wounds from Pearl, and a motivational tool for getting the US war materiel machine up and running.

I don't think the intention ever was to strike a significant blow to the people/infrastructure of Japan with the bombs. I think it was more symbolic to Americans back home.

And, to me, that knowledge - that they were acting more for symbolism than militaristic aplomb - lends an even greater air of heroism to the men that participated in the mission.

</jingoistic rant>

[return to the red]

what about the dropping of the Atomic bombs? If they had not been dropped the Americans would have been forced to a land invasion where a Japanese force of 3 million would have been waiting.

A precurser to Vietnam, who knows but had the Japanese withstood the Americans things would be much different

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by nmhen

Without claiming to be more than casually informed on the topic, wasn't the value of the Doolittle raid more in PR and morale than militarily strategic?

The idea that we (I am American) could stand up to the evil menace (Japan) and strike them on their own soil was seen as an important salve to the wounds from Pearl, and a motivational tool for getting the US war materiel machine up and running.

I don't think the intention ever was to strike a significant blow to the people/infrastructure of Japan with the bombs. I think it was more symbolic to Americans back home.

And, to me, that knowledge - that they were acting more for symbolism than militaristic aplomb - lends an even greater air of heroism to the men that participated in the mission.

</jingoistic rant>

I remember reading that Admiral Nimitz was afraid that the Doolittle raid would force a Japanese reaction where they would sortie thier entire fleet in a attempt to set up a security barrier in the Pacific and the Japanese would try to actively engage and destroy the American fleet. At the time Nimitz felt that the american fleet was too weak to stand up to the unbeatable Japanese fleet (remember that 2 of the 4 American fleet carriers had just returned to Hawaii with severe damage aand were forced back into action).

If the Japanese would have had any other Admiral but Nagumo in charge of the carrier fleet at the battle of Midway there would have been a probable different result.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by return to the red

what about the dropping of the Atomic bombs? If they had not been dropped the Americans would have been forced to a land invasion where a Japanese force of 3 million would have been waiting.

A precurser to Vietnam, who knows but had the Japanese withstood the Americans things would be much different

Huge turning point in world history as it bought WWII to the end and really ushered in the start of the cold war.

The question is, was the second bomb necessary in ending Japanese resolve, or was it a warning to Russia not to invade Japan as they were planning on doing?

[nmhen]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I remember reading that Admiral Nimitz was afraid that the Doolittle raid would force a Japanese reaction where they would sortie thier entire fleet in a attempt to set up a security barrier in the Pacific and the Japanese would try to actively engage and destroy the American fleet. At the time Nimitz felt that the american fleet was too weak to stand up to the unbeatable Japanese fleet (remember that 2 of the 4 American fleet carriers had just returned to Hawaii with severe damage aand were forced back into action).

If the Japanese would have had any other Admiral but Nagumo in charge of the carrier fleet at the battle of Midway there would have been a probable different result.

Actually, I think I read about Nimitz's concerns as well...although through the "historical fiction" lens of W.E.B. Griffin.

You can't blame Nimitz for fearing for the safety of the remains of his fleet at that point. You wonder if the Japanese would have come to the same conclusion if they ever batted around the thought of "huh, I wonder if the Americans will try to hit us on our own soil after this?" As in, "nah, Nimitz will be too afraid for the safety of the rest of his fleet to allow them to try something rash like that".

Another angle on Nimitz's fears though: If Japan threw up a protective barrier with their entire fleet after Doolittle, at least we would have known where they all (or at least a majority of them) were.

Very interesting stuff.

[CaptainCrunch]

Lots of interesting stuff on the battle of Midway.

- The American's only had 4 fleet carriers left after the battle of Leyte, two were badly damaged, with the Yorktown having only 1 out of 5 boilers working and a maximum speed of 15 knots. When they were recalled back to Pearl for repairs, it was estimated that the repairs to the Yorktown would take 3 months, they basically pushed it out of the drydock in two days.

- The Japanese Navy up until this point in the war had not lost a naval battle and they had a decided edge in carrier's and tactics, if they had managed to sink the American carriers, the entire West Coast of North America would have been open to attack, that was Nimitz's fear.

- U.S. intelligence was convinced that Pearl Harbour was the target and not Midway, the recommendation from the Joint Chiefs was to consolidate around Pearl.

- U.S. Naval intelligence had only broken 20% of the Japanese Navy code, they filled in the blanks with educated guesses, it was only until the phony water message from Midway that they were sure that Midway was the target.

- Admiral William "Bull" Halsey was the carrier commander, but fell ill with a skin infection, he recomended Admiral Raymond Spruace as his replacement, Spruace was a cruiser commander with little carrier experience, but the battle would have turned out differently with Halsey in Command of the carrier ops.

- Admiral Nugomo made several mistakes, he kept changing his mind about going after Midway with a second strike and going after the American carrier group, in the end his indecision left fully fueled planes on the carrier deck and unsecured bombs in the hangers. The American's were stunned at how easily the massive Japanese carriers were destroyed.

- Who's idea was it to paint a big red circle on the Japanese carrier decks right over top of the hangers?

- Two complete squadrons of Torpedo bombers were destroyed when they bravely tried to attack Nagumo's carriers without fighter escorts, not one torpedo hit.

- For the first time in the 20th century, not one ship to ship gun battle occured during the battle of Midway, it ushered an end to the battleship era.

[nmhen]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Lots of interesting stuff on the battle of Midway.

- The Japanese Navy up until this point in the war had not lost a naval battle and they had a decided edge in carrier's and tactics, if they had managed to sink the American carriers, the entire West Coast of North America would have been open to attack, that was Nimitz's fear.

No kidding...just ask the crew of the USS Indianapolis!

[return to the red]

Originally Posted by nmhen

No kidding...just ask the crew of the USS Indianapolis!

wasn't the Indianapolis sunk by a Japanese Sub?

Really, after watching some documentaries on Midway, The Americans were quite fortunate as some poor decisions by the Japanese and just plain luck on the Americans part really decided the battle.

[GreenLantern]

Right Cowperson got it, I wasn't sure if that was the first.. but I couldn't quite remember.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by return to the red

wasn't the Indianapolis sunk by a Japanese Sub?

Really, after watching some documentaries on Midway, The Americans were quite fortunate as some poor decisions by the Japanese and just plain luck on the Americans part really decided the battle.

The Indianapolis was sunk by a sub, and is a story onto itself.

there was a documentary on the mistakes of the Japanese Navy at Midway, the appointment of Admiral Nagumo was considered the biggest mistake as his promotion to that role was based on his senority and certainly not his command abilities.

His mistakes lead to fully gassed and armed planes being spotted on the decks of his carriers when the American dive bombers attacked. He also made the assumption that the American Carriers were still thousands of miles away at Pearl.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

- For the first time in the 20th century, not one ship to ship gun battle occured during the battle of Midway, it ushered an end to the battleship era.

I believe that was the earlier Battle of the Coral Sea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Coral_Sea

Cowperson